The Rise and Fall of Islam

January 17, 2016

The Rise and Fall of Islam

by Kassim Ahmad

The Quran in Surah Ali-‘Imran (3) states that “The only religion approved by God is Islam.” The Arabic word ‘deen’ essentially mean ‘way of life’ rather that the restricted ritualistic meaning of ‘religion’.


This religion of strict monotheism is taught by all prophets from Adam to its completion and perfection by Muhammad, the last of all prophets. But, as it is wont with human beings, corruption and deterioration set in and complete their work in after about 300 years (10 generations) to change the original teachings. Thus, the monotheism of Prophet Moses became polytheism in Judaism, of Prophet Jesus polytheism in Christianity, and of Muhammad polytheism in Sunnism.


Fortunately for mankind, the last of God’s scripture, the Quran, is divinely protected so that all mankind can always refer to it as its guide. This divine protection lies internally in the scripture in a mathematically awesome and impossible to imitate structure called Code 19. This Code is stated in the Quran in Surah Al-Muddaththir  (74), verses 30-31.

The verses go, “Over it is nineteen. We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assign their number (19) (1) to disturb the disbelievers, (2) to convince the Christians and the Jews (that this is a divine scripture), (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as believers, and (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts. The disbelievers will say, ‘What does God mean by this allegory?’ God thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.”

The rise of Islam, beginning with the reign of Prophet Muhammad in the Arabian Peninsular in early Seventh Century, within a short time of only sixty years shot up to be the Number One power in the world, beating the two superpowers of the then world, the Byzantine Empire and the Persian Empire.

Historian Philip K. Hitti, in his book, History of the Arabs (1970), states, “If someone in the first third of the seventh Christian century had had the audacity to prophesy that within a decade some unheralded, unforeseen power from hitherto barbarous and little-known land of Arabia was to make its appearance, hurl itself against the only two world powers of the age, fall heir to the one — the Sasanid – and strip the other – the Byzantine — of its fairest provinces, he would have undoubtedly have been declared a lunatic.

Yet that was exactly what happened. After the death of the Prophet sterile Arabia seems to have been converted as if by magic into a nursery of heroes the like of whom both in number and quality is hard to find anywhere. The military campaigns of Khalid ibn-al-Walid and ‘Amar ibn-al-‘As which ensued in al-Iraq, Persia, Syria and Egypt remain among the most brilliantly executed in the history of warfare and bear favourable comparison with those of Napoleon, Hannibal or Alexander.” (p. 142).

A Western philosophical historian, Robert Briffault, in his epoch-making book, The Making of Humanity (1919), after denouncing a conspiracy of silence by most Western historians on the contributions of Muslim science to modern Europe, summarized the contribution of Muslim science to civilization, thus: “The debt of our science to that of the Arabs does not consist in startling discoveries or revolutionary theories. Science owes a great deal more to  Arab culture , it owes its existence. The ancient world was, as we saw, prescientific. The astronomy and mathematics of the Greeks were a foreign importation never thoroughly acclimatized in Greek culture.

The Greeks systematized, generalized and  theorized, but he patient ways of investigation, the accumulation of positive knowledge, the minute methods of science, detailed and prolonged observation, experimental inquiry, were altogether alien to the Greek temperament. … What we called science arose in Europe as result of a new spirit of inquiry, of new methods of investigation, of the method of experiment, observation, measurement, of the development of mathematics in a form unknown to the Greeks. That spirit and those methods were introduced into the European world by the Arabs.” (p. 191)

Muslim civilization lasted eight centuries. In that time, Baghdad became the capital of the world and Europe became students at the feet of Baghdad. When the rot set in, Europe took over the banner of civilization and what is known as the European Renaissance began. Will Western leadership last for ever? Only time can  tell. Already cracks are beginning to be seen.



The more important question for Muslim leaders to answer is why the Muslim way of life, guaranteed by God, has collapsed, and how they can rebuild it. To answer this all-important question, they must re-study the Quran with a scientific methodology. I can suggest a few signposts.

First, at a certain point in time, Muslim science froze and deteriorated, due to wrong teaching of certain so-called masters. These were made into masters by a new priesthood class adopted in imitation of medieval Hinduism and Christianity. In Islam there is no priesthood class (mullahs in Islam).

Second, at a certain point in time, a certain attitude of fatalism developed in Islam due a new theology preached in accordance to hadith teachings. Hadiths are essentially fabrications falsely ascribed to the great name of Prophet  Muhammad.

Third, that new theology also preached salvation in the Afterlife, in a nondescript Theologians’ Nirvana in imitation of Buddhism. This led to Muslim apathy in a life waiting for death. At this point, roughly from the Fourteenth Century onwards, this false Islam died, with the false Muslims.

Fourth and last, to rebuild, the Muslims must re-study the Quran (which is their and mankind’s book of guidance) to find correct answers to their current plight. I have surmarised the teachings of the Quran as “revolutionary, life-affirming and death-defying”.  We must seek salvation in this life by raising our soul to a higher level. It is this raising of our soul to a higher level that is necessary for the coming Second Muslim Civilization.

50 thoughts on “The Rise and Fall of Islam

  1. All hadiths being mere fabrications??? Is that really true??? What about the Sunnah??? Aren’t the Sunnah recorded as & complied to as the hadiths??? Kassim can be misleading……

  2. Alas, the Prophet SAW predicted the present state of affairs of the Muslim nation. And if we concur with Ibn Khaldun the implosion of the Ummah is only to be expected. The Prophet SAW also foresaw false clerics who trade their souSl for the world. Unfortunately it looks like a while more before the fever breaks not till the ummah is really brought down by the others. So said the Prophet SAW.

  3. aliefalfa

    We believe that the Quran is supreme and a final revelation from God to mankind.While the Quran says it is a complete and detailed and whatever that are not included in it are alleviations for you(i.e you can make your own choice),we still insist that it is not complete and we need the Hadiths to explain wnd detailed it for us.Therefore we are not confident in the Word of God but have full confidence in the word of men (i.e the Ulamaks).

    I remember my first day at University when one my professor wrote a sentence on a piece of paper and asked a student at front end of the lecture theater to read and remembered the sentence and passed it on orally to the student behind him/her until to the last student at the back.Just within a period of less than 10minutes,the actual sentence that was given to the first student had changed dramatically from the original sentence.Imagine what happened to the original sayings of the Prophet that were passed on generation after generation over a period of over a century before they were actually written down.I remembered my sister who was not too happy about my perceptions of the hadith and had given me a book of hadith 40 and the first saying in that book was that the Prophet had commanded that nothing was to be written after his death except the Quran.

  4. To my Muslim brothers. Just bear in mind that the methodology of history in early Islam, such as the hadith narrations of the prophet’s sayings and action do not even conform to Qur’an’s standards of recording and testifying for debt contracts stipulated in 2:282. And what is religion if it isn’t a debt contract between us and God? Hence the name ‘deen’ derived from the same root word as debt – that is ‘dayn’. We are at risk of accepting falsehood if we accept the hadith in the deen. The standard laid out by the hadith recorders to accept something as sahih does not require the statement to have been written down, nor that there need be more than one witness to the statement. These standards fall exceedingly short of the standards laid out in 2:282 which demands a scribe to write down and witnessed by at least by witnesses to the contract.

    By the works of early scholars, most notably due to Shafi’i, the hadith today has a role in shaping stipulations in our religious contract with God, which it should not have if we follow by the standards set out in 2:282. We must be honest with ourselves and must be brave to admit that error was made in the past. If we do not we will continue committing the same sins as our forefathers. We will be blamed if we choose to accept and act upon conjecture. This is showed in the Qur’an itself in 17:36,

    “And pursue not that thou hast no knowledge of; the hearing, the sight, the heart — all of those shall be questioned of.”

    Will we heed this warning? It is time to revisit our theories of epistemology in order to separate the truth from falsehood.

  5. For the proponents of the Quran and nothing else pray tell which part of the Quran tells us exactly how to pray; how many rekaats for each prayer and what movements to perform and what to recite at each movement. Correct me if I am wrong but we learnt to pray following how Rasulallah SAW prayed, i.e. his sunnah. So if we choose to discard his sunnah, then perhaps we can have our styles of praying relying on our socalled intelect and rationale. So caution is advised before discarding the practices of Rasulallah SAW outright.

    On the other hand to be a certified specialist in hadiths in the old days, it is said that one has to master about 400,000 hadiths. Compare this with about 6600 verses of the Quran. Sometime is amiss, is it not?

    Whilst it is correct that there are more false hadiths as opposed to authentic ones, the science of hadith verification has been acknowledged to the most exacting and torturous one ever undertaken in history. So ascertain the authenticity of the hadith we come across and in case of doubt hold on to what Rasulallah SAW said. After His death many will produce statements purporting to be His. Check against the Quran. If it is there (explicit or implicit) accept it. Otherwise reject it. Now that too is another hadith.

    As regards the experiment on memory cited by En Abdul Jalil, the comparison is totally invalid. If we understand the state of the Arab society 1500 years ago, or for that matter any society then, society was almost exclusively an oral one. Writing was the preserve of the select few. People then learnt to memorize information in great depths and length as can be seen in the recitation of lengthly gaeneology, history and tales. Today with the advent of the computer and its peripherels people have difficulty even in producing a decent hand written note, what more to do simple maths without the aid of the calculator. My late grandfather could recite family trees and customs of various courts of Malay Sultans from sheer memory. So if the university experiment is to prove anything, it only proves the weaknesses of modern men, in particular our university students who cannot think even if their lives depended on it.

    Lastly, Alhamdulillah Syaidina Othman R.A insisted that Quran be written down. Had it not been so, we would have at least 4 versions of the Quran, like the Christian gospels, written by men who did not even lived during the time of Isa AS or the Torah written 1000 years after the departure of Musa AS.

    Sorry, now really lastly. Apart from being written down the Quran was also preserved in the memory of hundreds of thousands of men and women (hafiz) throughout the centuries, accurate to the last detail. So there you are En. Jalil the university demonstration proves nothing with regard the hadiths.

  6. puzzled by the term “Muhamad polytheism in Sunnism”. Where did that come from? What has he been smoking? Stretching our poetic license a bit too far, are we not?

    Not very impressed with the 4 points raised as to the demise of the Islamic nation. Groping around in the dark, clutching at straws. After 800 years of almost sole dominance from India to the Iberian Peninsula, with no meaningful challenge, what do you expect? Surely complacency, apathy and corruption of both body and soul is bound to set in. That it lasted for 800 years was in itself an achievement. Actually it lasted until WW1, albeit in a much weaker state.

    So stop looking for excuses. Apologies for my candour, En Kassim, but if you can dish it surely you can take it.

  7. Actually i take very strong exception to the term “polyetheism in sunnism”. Polyetheism is believing in many gods, assigning partners to God. The term we would use is Syirik and practitionars of such belief are known as Musyriks. So it seemed that En Kassim considers the sunnis as musyriks. That’s a very brave statement but bravery founded on stupidity (its easy to be brave when you don’t know the consequences). I wonder if he realises the import of his statement. Again what has he been smoking. Can’t be vaping as it is not known to give such hallucinations.

    So he goes on feigning concern for the fate of the ummah yet slipping in seeds of discord by calling those he do not agree with polyethists (musyriks) and the continuous diatribe against hadiths. So is that your real agenda En. Kassim, to split the ummah further. Then your feigned concern is nothing more than hypocrisy. Best stick to writing novels where you can fantasize to your hearts content. No apologies.
    Don’t get personal. Kassim Ahmad is controversial but he is not a hypocrite. But he makes cogent arguments, which you find disagreeable. That is fine, but mind your language. I hope, he will rebut you soon.–Din Merican

  8. If you spent your life really figuring out the universe and how things can be made I.E. science and engineering, then you will understand that the one constant is that the only near noble thing human being can do is keep solving problems and invention, questioning anything and everything. Any idea that stands in the way is ultimately false even if its religion of 1.5billion people.

  9. As long Mr. Kassim Ahmad keeps writing, I will continue buying his books. He would probably disagree with me but his provocative (at least in Islam) themes is what Islam desperately needs.

    The fact that he is harassed by the State and other elements is merely a sign that his words are dangerous to hegemonic Muslim interests.

    Although I disagree with some of his ideas and interpretations this is common place in any form of intellectual discourse.

  10. “The rise and fall of Islam” says the title of this posting… but the book illustrated is about “The rise and fall of radical political Islam”.

    Has the author mistaken the book… because the two subjects are vastly different.

  11. With due respect and apology to Inche Kassim Ahmad, I would like to cherry pick two of his quotes and give my observations.

    (i) “Fortunately for mankind, the last of God’s scripture, the Quran, is divinely protected so that all mankind can always refer to it as its guide”

    His reference to Quran being the “last” (emphasis mine) of God’s scripture” suggests that the previous scriptures, (like) Hinduism, Buddhism, Chritianity and Judaism were also God’s scriptures divinely protected. Also, who decided or decides that Quran is God’s last scripture? What is there to stop another prophet or messiah coming to earth with a new scripture in five or ten thousand years time? This is not delusional. Never say never. After all there is precedence for this as Inche Kassim has elaborately touched on. He wrote: “Historian Philip K. Hitti, in his book, History of the Arabs (1970), states, “If someone in the first third of the seventh Christian century had had the audacity to prophesy that within a decade some unheralded, unforeseen power from hitherto barbarous and little-known land of Arabia was to make its appearance, hurl itself against the only two world powers of the age, fall heir to the one — the Sasanid – and strip the other – the Byzantine — of its fairest provinces, he would have undoubtedly have been declared a lunatic”.

    (ii) ” Why the Muslim way of life, guaranteed by God, has collapsed, and how they can rebuild it. It is this raising of our soul to a higher level that is necessary for the coming Second Muslim Civilization”.

    If thousands of moderate Muslims the world over hold silence out of fear and hope to sit out the present bristling Islamic terrain where can change take place and how can a ‘Second Muslim Civilisation’ arrive? Certainly they do not want the ISIS type of forced transformational Muslim civilisation that can be imprinted if the ISIS elements are not stopped in their tracks.

  12. What historians write may be revealing but not necessarily be the truth or a version of truth. It is their reading of past events and making fresh observations from the vantage base of their scholarship and research. It is for us to accept, reject or stay neutral about the new ideas and thoughts distilled and brought out by them.

  13. Sikh Gurus said that EVERYTHING WILL END WITH TIME the only difference is the degree of deterioration. Even the planes and sun are dying so why not religions which are controlled by men and most of the time used/abused for personal greed?

  14. Man created god. Period.
    Man created religion. The Creator does not create Himself.Period. I could be wrong though by misreading your one liner. Anyway, we all have only one chance to find out when our journey on earth ends.–Din Merican

  15. The sunnis form 80%, if not 90% of the Muslim ummah. This is at least 1.2 billion souls. En. Kassim classifies them as polyethists or musyrikins. Allah has said that He can forgive all sins, except assigning partners to Him or syirik and its practitioners, musyrikins. So here we have one man who calmly labels 1.2 billion people as musyrikins. Now, if i had been personal, how would one categories that kind of statement. I do not know what lies beneath that statement, but one think is sure. It will be read by both the informed and the uninformed. And what will be the impact on the uninformed, seeds of doubt will be sown which will grow into some very ugly plants. So is that a very responsible statement. In fact much of the violence pepetrated by Muslims today sprang from irresponsible and ill informed statements, and pronouncements made by many quarters. The exploits of isis and al qaeda needs no elaboration.

    And people complain that the moderates Muslims, who form the majority, keep quiet. Did they stop for a moment to consider that perhaps they too are bewildered at what has taken place. Most of them still hold on to the “traditional” mould of Islam and could not fathom where all these new interpretation and pronouncements from the so called reformers of Islam come from.

    Syaidina Abu Bakar RA the closest companion to Rasulallah SAW, who knew Him to intimate details, safe His wives, would agonise for weeks and months before delivering a ruling or fatwa, reflecting the deepest sense of responsibility, care and love for his bethrens. Here we have En. Kassim at the stroke of a pen, white-washing 1.2 billion muslims as polyethists or musyriks. So what say you?

    And he goes on to say that after 300 years Islam like any Judaism and Christianity is no longer authentic, corrupted beyond its original form. So for the last 1200 years what has the Muslims been practicing? A corrupted form of Islam or not even Islam itself? On whose authority does he make such statements and on what credentials does he stand on. Again, am i being personal? These are his own writings. Again to the un or ill-informed what would they understand and what actions would they take to reestablish the purity of Islam. Note the Wahabbis.

    The choice of 300 years is interesting. Slightly over 300 years after the departure of Isa AS, the various Christians sects and denominations convened at Nicea to decide in the divinity of Christ. Main proponents were the Unitarians, those who believed that God is one and that Isa AS is nothing more but a prophet. On the other side was the Trinitarians, those who proposed just the opposite, that God is 3 in 1and that Isa AS was the son of God. Sitting on the judgement chair was Emporer Constantine a pagan (he converted to Christianity on his death bed). So what judgement can be expected. The Trinitarian concept was a rebranding of the Greco-Roman belief with Zeus, Apollo and Hercules, etc. , something Constantine was familiar and at ease with. The rest is history.

    So again why was 300 years chosen as a departure point of misguided Islam from genuine Islam? is he trying to draw a similarity here? If so, what or who are the others gods which the sunnis worship? Nothing personal, just asking.

    And the exploits and endeavors of the Muslims scientists were extolled heaven high. No argument there, just a question. If the Muslim scientists then were so meticulous in their approach to the sciences, would they not also apply the same rigorous tests to the hadiths. Bear in mind the the Muslim scientists then were not atheists. All of them were hafiz (memorize the Quran) and Muhaddiths ( know the hadiths by heart). so it cannot be that they are rigorous with the sciences, yey sloppy with the hadiths.

    Finally to each his own, but someone of stature should be careful of what he writes. The audience is far and wide. We have enough Isis, talibans and al qaeda already.


    Shaipudin,it seems that Dr Kassim Ahmad introduced someone who has shaped America’s experience with the Middle East. Ray Tayekh’s opinion matters, it seems.

    It seems to be a book about teaching us to leave Islamic radicals alone as it would burn out fairly quickly.

    Takeyh and Gvosdev track the rise and fall of Islamist movements in Iran, Algeria, Egypt, Sudan, Afghanistan and former Yugoslavia, and conclude that, while Islamists in these countries had a substantial following and at times even gained power, in general they have done quite poorly as political movements. As the authors note, “it is increasingly clear that radical political Islam cannot seize control of modern or modernizing states within the Islamic heartland and construct an effective alternative model of governance.”


    Shaipudin, on what you have mentioned about the 300 years and much of the misreading of trinitarians by Christians, of which I am one follower of Isa, barely hanging onto his promise to deliver, I find comfort in the following Dr Kassim Ahmad’s sharing.

    “””God thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He.”””
    Quran in Surah Al-Muddaththir (74), verses 30-31.

    Amen, Salvation is of the Lord’s. Not you nor me.

  17. #main proponents were the Unitarians, those who believed that God is one and that Isa AS is nothing more but a prophet
    @shaipudin, it is not as simple as per what you have mentioned about Unitarians.

    Riverside church is close to my spiderman university. I learned about this one of those days I visited the church, who sum it up well.

    “If we are not yet one in life, at least we are one in sin, which is no mean bond because it preludes the possibility of separation through judgement” William Sloanne Coffin, pastor of New York’s Riverside church.

    I was not a Christian then, even though I read through quite significant amount of the Bible by myself to escape away from the misery of having to go through STPM, a unfair education stream which I really hated that I wished noone else in Malaysia have to go through that again. I was a clueless Malaysian Chinese who just landed into New York. Today, I grew to appreciate those words as this:

    We humans are united by our sin and by the need for salvation.

    Unitarians are not simpletons like what you have mentioned.

  18. Sir Abdullah Al-Mamun Al-Suhrawardy, in the Introductory part of his book on the Translation of the Qura’n , writes :

    ” ….Muhammad did not claim to be the founder of new religion ; his mission was to restore the earlier religions to their pristinepurity . The Muslim believes in a chain of inspired prophets and teachers, who taught the same truths, With the evolution , progress, and advancement of humanity, the Divine Will reveals and manifests itself more clearly and distinctly. ……and that the Kur’an is the latest Revelation of them all …..the Kur’an makes no distinction between any of the prophets….. ”

    As regards sins and punishment/s , this is the relevant Verse he cites at page 60 –

    (vide para 145 .) ” Verily your deeds will be brought back to you, as if you yourself were the creator of your own punishment ”

    (vide para 360 ) ” It is your own conduct which will lead to reward or punishment , as if you had been destined therefor ” (page 93 ) ”

    God is a Loving, Merciful and Forgiving Creator, ever ready to forgive….but alas…. Man reaps what he himself sows :

    (para 149 ) – ” This life is but a tillage for the next, do good that you may reap there, for striving is the ordinance of
    God, and whatever God hath ordained can only be attained by striving ”

    (Moral : The Loving God dissociates Himself from partisanship nor does He ‘ discriminates ‘ one against the other or another : man himself is responsible for his own salvation , or….Doom !

  19. shaipudin shah harun

    Hope you read my comment on the bases on which we should accept something as a command from God or the Prophet. As I stated, the Qur’an in 2:282 showed us the standards to ensure the fidelity of a contract. And religion is a contract by God to man in which a man’s good actions entails a promised good reward and evil one’s promises punishment.

    It would be hypocritical of the Prophet if all the stipulations in the deen were not recorded in the way the Quran itself demanded it be recoded. This is what the partisan of hadith are indirectly insinuating by accepting that hadeeth may add, alter or specify to the Qur’an because by doing so you accept that certain commands are not included in the Qur’an and preserved only by memory and handed down orally. Do you see how accepting this theory means that we accept the Prophet did not ask his scribes to write down some important commands in the religion? Do you see how this in turn means he acted in contradiction to 2:282? and do you see how this would render him a hypocrite?

    Certainly we cannot accept that the prophet himself would disregard the standards as commanded by God. We know that the Qur’an was recorded in such a way as demanded by verse 2:282. Zayd ibn Thabit who was the prophet’s main scribe had two witnesses that memorized the Qur’an to witness every passage of the Qur’an he wrote down. He also collected all the material where the Qur’an was previously recorded on.

    As regards to performance of rituals without the hadith, it still doable without them. It is only because of hadith that we believe that the rituals are very specific. Of course the Qur’an itself outlined details of ritual prayer such as the ablutions and facing the sacred mosque. It may in fact be that God did not require the performance of rituals to be so procedural and shrouded in so much detail as what we currently believe. Even the different sunni mazhabs have different ideas of what is compulsory in prayer even though they all accept hadith. e.g. the Hanafi school does not believe the recitation of Fatihah is wajib, nor is the final tahyat sitting position an hence prayer can be ended by sujud (see Bidayat al-Mujtahid by ibn Rushd). Even Islamic heresiographical literature showed early sects which did not perform prayer as how we typically perform prayer due to their adherence strictly to the Qur’an in the matter (see Abu Tammam in Bab al-shaytan). God reminds us that we are absolved of responsibility regarding whatever that is not mentioned (5:101) and so we should not make it hard for ourselves when God has not burdened us. Else we will be no different from the Children of Israel during the time of Moses who asked too many questions when God asked them to sacrifice a heifer (see surah al-baqarah)

    Let us not get confused between hadith and sunnah. The hadith purportedly shows the sayings, manners and acts of the prophet and hence it supposedly shows his sunnah. But the Sunnah of the prophet or his examples can be derived from the Qur’an. In fact the most important examples of the prophet’s behaviour are in the Qur’an. What is not mentioned is inconsequential to the observance of the religion.

  20. Shaipudin

    The Quran says:”The majority of the people will not believe and the majority of the believers will be idol worshippers”.(sorry offhand I cannot give you the exact Surah and verse for this).The Quran also says:”Those who divide their religion into sects do not belong with you(O Muhammad).Their judgement rests with God and He will inform them of everything they did(6:159).

    Take those two verses together and knowing that the Muslims do divide themselves into sects like Sunni and Shia and follow Hadiths sometime at the expense of the Quran,it is possible in the eyes of God the vast majority of Muslims wether Sunnis or Shias are considered as idol worshippers.For example the Quran says:”Those who cannot afford to marry free believing women,may marry believing slave women.————————–.Once the slave woman is freed through marriage,if she commits adultery,her punishment shall be half of that for for the free woman.—————————–(4:25).The punishment for adultery in the Quran is 100lashes if you can produce 4witnesses to the act of fornication but stoning to death according to the Hadiths.Therefore half of death doesnt make any sense at all if you use the Hadiths but 50 lashes as per the Quranic injunction makes perfect sense.This is one of the example where we are not obeying God but following the injunction of Imams which may include us among the idol worshippers.

    Quran 21:72;We granted him(Abraham)Isaac and Jacob as a gift and we made them righteous.
    Quran 21:73 ;We made them Imams who guide according to our commandments and we thought them how to work righteousness and how to observe Salat and Zakat charity.To us they were worshippers.
    Quran 16:123 ; Then we inspired you (Muhammad)to follow the religion of Abraham,monotheism,he never fell into idol worship.
    Quran 22:26 ;We pointed out for Abraham the location of the shrine.You shall never idolize anything beside me and purify my shrine for those who encircle it, and those who bow and prostrate(salat) therein.

    If you study the above verses and more in the Quran you will realise that all our religious rituals including Salat,Zakat,fasting inthe month of Ramadan,Hajj pilgrimage were taught to Abraham and his children and Muhammad was supposed to revive them because most people did not practice them in their lives anymore.So you can find Jews in Yemen today that perform the Salat in quite a similar fashion to the Muslims.Therefore you do not need Hadiths to teach you your religous obligations .Most of us learn how to perform the Salat from our elders and not by referring to the Hadiths.

  21. Kata Sayang, where did you read Unitariam as simpletons. I was capturing the essence of the arguments of the council, i.e. the divinity of Christ. Yes the discussion was a lengthy one which required a second council years later.

    As regards to unity or bond in sin are you refering to the concept of original sin or sin after awareness (no longer a minor). The former is the Christian stand that all men are born in sin, whilst the latter is the Islamic stand that man is born pure and is only responsible once he reaches awareness and is accountable for his own sins, not for the sin of his fathers or those before him.

  22. Shaipudin

    If your arguments that the olden day Arabs followed oral tradition and had fantastic memories are valid why do we have so many different versions of hadith saying from 1000 to 6000 sayings.Even the authenticated hadiths which were all actually written by Persians rather than Arabs consisted of vastly different number of the supposedly Prophet’ssayings.Some people believe that the book of hadiths by Imam Maliki should be included in the list of authenticated hadiths and despite living closest to the time of the Prophet,his book consisted much less number of sayings compared to the book by Imam Bukhari who lived 300 years later after Prophet’s death.While you are not too happy to the fact that the Bible and Torah were written much latter after the deaths of the respective prophets,you are quite willing to accept the book of hadiths written 300years after the death of Prophet Muhammad.Finally I think Sy.Othman introduced the new Arabic calligraphy used in the Quran and was not the first to write it down?.

  23. Shaipudin. I apologize for the misread. Unitarians in Chrisitianity came in the 18th century. Those who argued for the nondivinity of Jesus in the 3rd century are Arianism. I agree with the differences you have mentioned. I am not proud of recognizing the issue I have, aka sin, and the powerlessness apart from Him to resolve much.

  24. Shaipudin, i just wanted to share that ultimately, Chrisitianity should have little to say or add to the progress of Islamic Ummah. I hope you would agree to that. I apologize for the disruption in this very important discussion chain.

    For my own faith, we are going through a painful time figuring out what our spirituality brings to the table of actual policies making.

    In many ways, a lot of end times eschatology is not helping us as individuals trying to figure how to live today.

    In essence, I clearly hear Dr Kasssim Ahmad’s call for us to figure out what it means to live out a spiritual life that is
    “revolutionary, life-affirming and death-defying”

    I have shared a lot for my concern and some thoughts in my blog katasayang. wordpress. com. As LaMoy correctly pointed out, it is mumbo jumbo, especially in my end of year post, which I have taken out.

    I look forward to hearing more from you.

    Takkan Melayu Hilang di Dunia.

  25. #Christian gospels, written by men who did not even lived during the time of Isa
    Shaipudin, that is not the case, as per my tradition.
    Mark was there with Jesus as a young kid. John and Matthew are apostles.

  26. I did not read this article and not qualified to comment about Islam. But one thing that I know is all religious preach about peace but humans will do horrible things to another fellow humans in the name of his religion.


  27. /// Man created god. Period.
    Man created religion. The Creator does not create Himself.Period. I could be wrong though by misreading your one liner. ///

    Din – I thought that was crystal clear. The usual refrain is “God created man”. Actually, the reverse is true. Early man, mostly ignorant and afraid of the unknown, invented god to explain the then inexplicable. The thunder god, diseases caused by gods. Now, we know better. From more than 3,000 gods, now we are down to a much smaller number. Which god you believe in is largely determined by where you were born and what religion your parents profess. And each believer thinks his god is the one and only true god. Surely all can’t be right. All are wrong.

    There are millions and billions of people who still believe that the earth was created 6000 years ago despite all the scientific evidence. And that somebody went to heaven on a winged horse.

    Societies and countries are so much the worse and poorer when religions get in the way of governing the countries. Despite all its ills, the US is a progressive society because of its godless Constitution. I would go further – all the failed states and failing states in the world are largely theocracies or where politicians start religionizing politics and religious leaders indulge in politics.

  28. @teck, personally I hate to see another war of religion. But, to be fair, war existed without religion also. War against religion is as brutal also, taking into account of what is taking place in China.
    Running away from religion is no help in avoiding war happening in the name of religion, though I must agree with your suggestion that embracing religion does not necessarily end war either.

    Came across this Tim Keller comment on war and religion.

    Certain popular understanding of end times in my religion is that war is bound to happen in a peculiar way. But, it is definitely not the only understanding, and not my understanding. I do encourage you to understand them. It is wrong for me to quote from my religion in this discussion chain since it is clearly not about my religion. Part of my reply to Shaipudin is exactly that. Christianity should have nothing to add to the revival of the ummah, although Western civilization and Islamic civilization did have a past that could not be separated. Also, I am not sure I am qualified to answer on Western civilization’s behalf.

    I do appreciate your reminder to us Christians, when we claim we celebrate our Prince of Peace, we have inevitably caused so much sufferings at the same time. We human. Yet, that is exactly why grace is so precious to us.

    Even as Chinese, our need to rebuild too has caused big issues also, especially for the bauxite mining in Pahang that is currently happening.

    Thank for the reminder.

  29. The: Perhaps, some are just less evolved than you, or some Philosopher King in Singapore has already figured it out that it is best to let the less evolved remained as it is. Perhaps, some philosopher King and Harvard figured you will evolve quick enough to know the reason why God’s existence could not be disproved. Pardon my slow evolution. I am doing it as fast as I can already. Glad I could still be considered human! Barely catching up…. 😛

  30. 1. The many (29 so far) views on my article show that people want a reasoned discourse on this important topic. I wish to thank those who support me.
    2. I used the term “polytheism in Sunnism” because it is exactly what it is. Firstly, it is not what the Prophet taught. He taught the same Islam (religion of monotheism) as all the other previous prophets taught. The only difference is that he completed and perfected it. (Quran, 5:3) There are two verses stating “Do not worship two gods.” (Quran, 15: 95-96 & 16: 51). Hindus worship many gods; Christians three gods. Who then are the worshipers of two gods? Think!
    3. The Quran is God’s final scripture. That follows from Muhammad being the last prophet of God and Muhammad bringing to the world the Quran. Note that Muhammad is not responsible for the hadiths. As I said, the hadiths are fabrications foisted on the name of Muhammad. There are many statements in the Quran denying the existence of so-called sayings of Muhammad. Of course Muhammad said and did many things that ordinary human beings do, but we are referring to the divine-inspired Quran.
    4. The term ‘sunnah’ originally meant the people’s custom. As ‘Aishah was reported to have said, the Prophet’s sunnah is the Quran — he is the standing Quran, one can say.
    — Kassim Ahmad

  31. /// katasayang January 19, 2016 at 1:15 pm
    Perhaps, some philosopher King and Harvard figured you will evolve quick enough to know the reason why God’s existence could not be disproved. ///

    That which you cannot disprove does not mean it exists. I cannot disprove the existence of Leprechauns. I cannot disprove the existence of unicorn. I cannot disprove the existence of the tooth fairy or teapot fairy.

    It is funny that people will believe in their own god, but not others’. We don’t believe in Thor or Zeus now. Why do people still believe in the desert rebel?

  32. The, I hear you. I apologize. I was just being silly. I have more problems with Christians than atheists. Today it is those who endorsed Trump.
    Religion is just something humanity still have to live with today. Perhaps till the day when Kurzweil’s Singularity becomes a reality, things could change. Yet, even then, that will be merely be the day of new heaven and new earth. 😀

  33. The,

    Something cannot come from nothing. It is logically impossible. The big bang singularity and an expanding universe shows that the universe had a beginning. Since the world cannot appear on its own, there must be an eternal uncreated creator.

    Furthermore there is no proof that something may come into being without an efficient cause. But on the other hand, all observations show that every being had a prior thing that caused it. So even if you think about it probabilistically, it is more likely that there is a creator rather than there isn’t.

  34. Wijaya, yes, it can. The latest scientific evidence points to this fact.

    Now, if you want to go the creationist route, that there must be a creator – then, who created the creator? You are back to square one.

    View the video below in its entirety – there is a portion from Lawrence Krauss which deals with exactly the point that you wrongly asserted. Don’t take my words – listen to the scientist who specialises in this field.

  35. katasayang – no worries; no need to apologize. I am just amazed that Malaysians are wasting time, energy and resources in arguing who can use the word Allah, who must be buried according to which religious customs, that buildings cannot be in the cruciform, etc.

  36. “Since the world cannot appear on its own, there must be an eternal uncreated creator. ”

    Really ? Why ?

    “So even if you think about it probabilistically, it is more likely that there is a creator rather than there isn’t.”

    How so ?

  37. The

    I had read Richard Dawkins’s book God Delusion and was not impressed with his arguments.Even against Mehdi Hassan on “Head to Head”on Al Jazerra on the same topic,he appeared lame.

  38. AJ , I watched the entire debate between Medhi Hassan and Richard Dawkins at the Oxford Union. I am very impressed with Richard’s argument and underwhelmed by Mehdi’s nonsensical “argument”. He believed that someone flew to heaven on a winged horse. By Muslim debaters’ standards, Medhi is the poster boy. But his blind belief in blind faith blinded him to facts.

    I have also read Dawkins’ book and I am impressed. Guess when it comes to religions, as long as one has to suspend belief, there is no meeting of minds.

  39. 1. “Who created God?” That is a seemingly clever question. It is not so clever actually. You are entering the field of philosophy, a field of which is called epistemology, the methodology of knowing. It consists of three branches of knowledge, (a) knowledge by the senses (Quranic term ‘ainul-yaqin’), (b) knowledge by logical deduction (Quranic term ‘ilm-ul-yaqin’), and lastly (c) knowledge by supra-logical or supra-rational means (Quranic term ‘haqq-ul-yaqin’)
    2. What we call God is simply a principle of perfection. By the cause and effect argumentation, you will arrive at an Uncaused Cause. The answer to the puzzle is simply the Uncaused Cause (God) stands by itself, if you can imagine it! You cannot imagine it, of course.
    3. The atheist says the Universe creates itself. How does he know that? Moreover, it is not logical for the him to say that, the Universe being matter that needs a creator. The haqq-ul-yaqin of the Quran refers to the principle of Truth (with a capital T) that stands by itself, as God stands by Himself. God exists from all eternity.
    4. Every man at times experiences inspiration. This term also refers to revelation. When Shakespeare was inspired, he wrote those great dramas. When Beethoven was inspired, he wrote his famous 5th Simphony and other great pieces of great music. When Muhammad was inspired he received the Quran. And so on.
    5. Can we explain this phenomenon of inspiration? Yes, we can, Part of the breath God is blown into a human being when he is born, as we are told in the Quran. I believe all the previous scriptures of God say the same thing of man.
    4. When Dawkin’s book was selling in our bookshops, I had the audacity to take him down frontally. I wrote a long critique of it and posted it in my blog. If I remember rightly, my friend Dato’ Din publish it in his widely-read blog. I have not read Prof. Dawkin’s rejoinder. I would be most grateful if anyone here can acquiant me with his rejoinder.
    — Kassim Ahmad

  40. “3. The atheist says the Universe creates itself. How does he know that? Moreover, it is not logical for the him to say that, the Universe being matter that needs a creator.”

    Atheist don’t say this. What they say is, if people make extraordinary claims, they should provide the required proof.

  41. The pro-God arguments of almost all God-believers, including our good Inche Kassim, is based on the script of their faith (Bible, Quran, Bhagavat Gita etc.) that they read, absorb, practice and preach. Beyond this box, they have nothing else of value to add to support their thesis of there being a God.

    The non-believers or the atheists on the other hand, have no such terrestrial books to back them. Their case is based on simple common sense and logic that is getting increasingly persuasive. Recent published studies in Europe shows that faith belief is declining and Church attendance is dropping in alarming numbers all over Europe.

    I once attended a spiritual talk by a reputable preacher. He compared God to Electricity. He said: Both are not visible to the eye but one can feel their presence. How? Just touch a high voltage live wire and one will know the answer, if he is lucky enough to survive. It did not occur to this learned priest that the underlying message he unwittingly conveys is that God kills.

  42. Kassim Ahmad – of course you know god(s) exist(s). Which god? And which of the thousands of gods is the one true god?

  43. I think we should have a separate thread for atheists. Perhaps something as how atheists would like a pluralistic political world to be organized? I would be keen to learb from anyone who has a good suggestion piece to guide us.

    On the the philosophical realm of epistemology that Encik Kassim Ahmad shared, the Chinese side of me wanted to add that there are many interesting battles of idea between Taoist’s nothingness 無 and Buddhist’s emptiness 空. In short, as per my understanding, emptiness struggles on the unseen cosmic relationship between all, while nothingness excels in driving our attention back to the unseen source of all that could be seen or conceived. When to jump into each mode of thoughts is most interesting, esp when i can see similar idea within my faith also. Atheism itself is yet another drive into similar theological discussion as it strives to dismiss all religion. No one could disprove atheism also, since there is no good text around that also. There is only certain ideal of rejection of some existing idea as it needs to be.

    As per thread on impossibility of people with flying horse, i can only say as much as i read thus far, every theologian at some point falls back to the idea that some text is an allegory. It is just differences on understanding of which is an allegory, which is not, and which ones are the parts that we do not know and we do not care.

  44. 1. The fact that some people believe in many gods is no proof that there are many gods. Reflect that the vast heavenly spheres have been revolving for billions of years, and no power controlling them? Even atheist Steven Hawkings talks about the mind of God! That means atheism is a misnomer for egoism.
    2. Recall that I said the process of deterioration is ever-present in Man’s make-up. In about 300 years all monotheistic teachings changed to polytheism. Man has to struggle every step of the way to achieve perfection. Failure means extinction. That explains the rise and fall of nations.
    3. Where is God’s compassion then? In His teachings for Man to struggle to create his own Paradise. In a beautiful allegory in the second chapter of the Quran (2: 30) the angels protested against God’s intention to create a deputy on Earth (Man) on the grounds that he would spread evil and shed blood. In answer, God simply said He knows better. That show God’s optimism of Man.
    4. Of course Man has shed blood. Witness the two World Wars. Yet he has created civilizations, and is now poised to live in outer space. Man himself creates his own perfect world, of course, with God’s compassionate guidance.
    — Kassim Ahmad

  45. Mr. Kassim Ahmad – “Even atheist Steven Hawkings talks about the mind of God! That means atheism is a misnomer for egoism.”

    This is what Hawking said in reference to the quote you cherry picked . “”What I meant by ‘we would know the mind of God’ is, we would know everything that God would know, if there were a God. Which there isn’t. I’m an atheist.”

    Atheism isn’t a misnomer for egoism although many atheist do pander to their egos. Tell me Mr. Kassim how egotistical is it for Man to attempt to decipher the so called will of a Supreme Being, secure – arrogantly so – in the knowledge that his interpretation is the correct one ?

    How egoistical is it for Man to believe that this world was created by a Supreme Being for him and that punishments or rewards were in place for him ?

    katasayang – “Perhaps something as how atheists would like a pluralistic political world to be organized?”

    This already has come to be in varying degrees in political Systems around the world. It has come to be not because of atheist but as I have argued before because there are only two religions which could be empirically proven, Democracy and Capitalism.

  46. The argument that “some people believe in many gods is no proof that there are many gods” does not in any way prove that there is a single or a God at all.

    This is a good thread of mine sharing over the existence of God – interesting and at the same time mind boggling.

    Adlai Stevenson, the late former US Ambassador to the UN, a well known Attorney himself, had this tip for lawyers: If the law is not on your side, argue on the facts and if the facts are not on your side argue on law.

    Non-believers mine their own minds to argue their case out. Believers appear to be not. They invariably tap on their scripts (Bible, Quran, Bhagavat Gita etc.) to counter it. Delving into the unknown, metaphsics, cosmos and all as backup is not going to make negative look positive or positive look negative – just show me the Dollar!!!

  47. Kassim, you keep referring to the man-made book which was plagiarized from the Bible, which was in turned plagiarized from the Torah, which in turn plagiarized from Mithras. You are going in circle. You know god exists because the Koran (Bible, Torah, name your book) says so. Is what is claimed in those books true? Yes – because the books said so.

  48. Man is an argumentative creature. Although I have given my proofs, some will still oppose. . So instead of wasting time, I say to them, “To you your way of life, to me mine.” Let us depart in peace.– Kassim Ahmad

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