Rape, Murder, Hudud?

March 24, 2015



Rape, Murder, Hudud?

by Dr.Azmi Sharom@ http://www.rakyattimes.com

Azmi SharomAs I feared – no one can speak against hudud. Non-Muslims don’t have the right and Muslims must just obey because, according to PAS, this is God’s law.

In fact, if you question it, you deserve to be burnt and raped, as has been the threat against a BFM radio newsreader. I thought murder and rape are also against God’s law. But perhaps in the minds of some, two wrongs do make a right. Or perhaps there is a clause that says that murder and rape are OK as long as they are committed in the name of God.

 I am very angry. I am angry for the following reasons:

As usual, when anything about Islam comes up in this country, there is a tendency for all reason to go out the door. This is shameful because Islam has prided itself on being a faith of reason where knowledge and the written word were emphasised in the very first revelation.

The disgusting behaviour of the thugs who threatened Aisyah Tajuddin of BFM Radio for her participation in a video questioning the implementation of hudud is an insult to the religion into which I was born and raised. Yet, I hear nothing from the “defenders of the faith” against these people. Perhaps it is because they don’t like what Aisyah said? If that is the case, then what they are saying is that if you don’t like what someone thinks and says and if another person threatens serious harm to him or her, it is OK to just keep quiet. In other words, consent through silence.

And already some PAS people are making sounds that this is something that cannot be debated and cannot be questioned. This, from a party that claims to be democratic. “Islamic democrats” – some of their number describe themselves. Where is democracy if we can’t discuss the laws which govern us? Where is democracy when a person lives in fear of being demonised, just because his or her ideas differ from those of the “Islamic democrats”?

Hadi3Haji Abdul Hadi Awang al-Hududu

I have always held the belief that if those in PAS or anyone else wants to implement hudud or any law that they think is so fantastic, then it is their right. If they want to make this a country governed by their Ulama Council, it is their right.

But if you want to change this country, you have to do it by the rules. You must obey the Constitution and you must allow democratic space for full and open discussions. And you must defend the right of people to take part in those discussions.That is the only just way. Or does justice not matter anymore?


28 thoughts on “Rape, Murder, Hudud?

  1. A message for our friend Aziz Ismail. To him ulamas like Haji Abdul Hadi Awang al-hududu are learned and cannot be questioned. When someone like al-Hududu says his version of Hudud is God’s Law, we must obey and be in the company of religious goons.

    I suppose non-Muslims have to stay out of this matter. Who says so? Of course, it is Mr. Aziz who said so. CLF, Siang Malam, Mr. Aziz is denying you of your freedom of expression which is guaranteed by our constitution.–Din Merican

  2. The commonest material that exists on this planet are perovskite minerals.
    What has this to do with God’s Laws (including the supernatural “H”, that’s actually terribly watered down versions of Hebraic Levitical Laws)? Everything.

    “H”, it seems is absolutely sacred and nobody, even non-believers are supposed to question it. SUBMIT! Who cares if you have half a brain or are entitled free-will. It’s iron cast, bullet-proof, irrefutable and infallible. Only thing is that it’s a prescription against proscriptions like wine, women (especially) and song.. Where’s the fun?

    Even discussing it will cause those rigid fanatics and ‘fundamentalists’ (collectively and undeservedly called ISIS nowadays) to go ballistic and provoke attacks according to our most insipid, stuporous, intellectually challenged but outrageously relevant Twitterigp, who head seems to be bursting with hubris?

    Isn’t it better that he, as the enforcer, at least try to bury these ‘extremists’? Like what God did to the 200 or so angels who lusted after ‘fleshy’ women in the Book of Enoch – under miles of Perovskite? Or like how we attempt to bury nuclear wastes under desert mountains?

    So what’s a little threat of rape, murder and mayhem? Nothing. At least compared to the pervasiveness of Perovskite.

    Why do you think God made Perovskite – which has so proven to be quite inert and useless. Perhaps it’s there just to mess with our minds? Btw, we can only synthesize this mineral between mega pressured diamond anvils. Cast Iron ain’t seen nothing yet..

  3. Mr. Aziz, just because you are offended doesn’t mean you are right.

    BTW, I am sure everyone agrees, Muslims or non-Muslims alike, that other than God, everyone else in the Universe can be questioned, and, dare I say it, criticized?

    It has always been my educational upbringing that once you place yourself above criticism, you have already lose the argument. I don’t know, perhaps Mr. Aziz has a different educational upbringing?

  4. “..other than God, everyone else in the Universe can be questioned..” Wayne

    Er.., but i question Him. Call it having a Conversation with my Father. I’m mad.

    Does that mean i can never jive Relativity with Quantum Mechanics? Which no One can at the moment, except those literalistic head hunters who see the very big in the very small.. Like imposing ‘irrefutable’ Mega Laws, which they hope can fulfil the word ‘preventive’ but in the end, just simply means amputative capital punishment.

    It ‘boils’ down onto how one ‘visualizes’ God. As a loving, merciful, patient, forgiving, mysterious, all encompassing Father who teaches and at times, admonishes – or as a strict, brutal, no nonsense, bombastic, monolingual Tyrant who insists on His way or no way.. Hellfire and brimstone? As if these were the ‘hottest’ things in the Universe.

    The Gnostics believe that the God who created this world is a fumbling, bumbling, imperfect emanation (no snide remarks, please) of the distant True Nameless Creator of Light. This local creator is called the Demiurge. His Consort is sometimes called Sophia (Wisdom, who is always portrayed as a Feminine). No wonder Angelina Jolie (of Maleficent fame, among others), had both her still ‘presentable’ breasts lopped off and is now contemplating on removing her ovaries.. Such ‘wisdom’..

    As a kid, i asked my pastor a simple question: “Why is Hell Hot and not Cold? Both are just as uncomfortable?” He prevaricated and started quoting verse after verse – which as a kid i couldn’t care less. Hell is a place where the Heart is ‘Hot’ for His presence – because He ain’t there.., sort of thing..

    So I have kept my faith, but still believe in the absolute zero (finite) as opposed to who knows how many zillion degrees celsius?

  5. Inspector-General of Police Tan Sri Khalid Abu Bakar has turned on another human rights lawyer, using his Twitter account to ask Michelle Yesudas to explain her recent tweet in which she expressed fear about the state of the country following rape and death threats against the female presenter of a video clip on hudud. –


    The IGP intimidates a human rights lawyer but goes all demur when it comes to IS.

  6. Dr Azmi, double standard is not just the monopoly of Malaysia Boleh, but also the domain of Islamic jurisprudence. I personally see this being practiced by both my Surau and Masjid. My surau treats funds belonging to its former and now defunct Persatuan as its own despite the fact that a majority of the old members having opted out of the persatuan now running its administration. Worse still, part of the funds represented khairat kematian collections, the benefits of which had for sometime now been denied to the beneficiaries. My masjid, on the other hand, refuses to justify with facts its accusation that one of its imams had defaulted his rental payments. When shown proofs that the Imam had not been paid his salary for months, his services were immediately terminated, evidently to silence the matter. I wonder who would lose his hand in the Surau case and whether my Imam would have been able to save himself from undue punishment in the Masjid case, if Hudud is in force. I am not trying to poke fun about Hudud, but merely probing live cases for thoughts.
    Alias, your experience is not unusual. It starts at the top, the very people who are put in positions of trust. If the head is rotten, the body stinks. Sheer hypocrisy.–Din Merican

  7. The issue is where does this attitude of “Muslim can’t question” and “non-muslim has no say” – these are medieval attitudes, not modern even modern authoritharinism concern about public unrest and material affect. But this is different. Its refusal to discuss facts and reasoning.

    Truth is it may start at the medieval connection BUT its modern politics such as entitlement that has also contributed if not made it worst. Yes, part of the blame goes to the idea of “special rights” that never existed and supposed to go away because the founders thought it unwise in the long run.

  8. aliasuki’s experience is useful because it educates Non Muslims on the intricacies of the grass roots practice of the religion and brings up some fascinating problems for hudud.

    Mind you I think that all religions suffer from these problems but what happens when a State sanctioned religion is plagued by such unethical behaviours ?

    Nobody here I am sure has forgotten all the Tabung Haji scandals.

    “BTW, I am sure everyone agrees, Muslims or non-Muslims alike, that other than God, everyone else in the Universe can be questioned, and, dare I say it, criticized?”

    Why is as an atheist I find C.L. Familiaris’s response to this extremely comforting ?

  9. At the rate things are going we will back to the Stone Age in 2020. We can stone everything, stone people to death, build stone houses that will collapse, etc.
    Is that Wawasan 2020?

  10. Loosebrain,

    The Job of Judaism and Christianity, in the Tanakh/O.T is very different from prophet Ayub in the Quran – both is substance and in the narrative.

    The latter submits unquestioningly, while the former questions the Almighty, to seek an answer to his afflictions – to which God answers in a with a whole lot of rhetoric. None of which Job really understands. Like Jesus saying “..as far as the East is from the West..”

    Arguments never hurt but submission to other men does. This includes physical slavery, intellectual servility and mental overdependence. It seems to me that ‘Priesthood’ can never be really eradicated even among the literates, but uneducated across all religions. God needs ‘interpreters’ mah..

    Some Orientalist scholars describe Muslims as “defeatist or fatalistic”, within their own communities. However, due to their exclusiveness, the Other is easily demonized – the Kafir must be diminished and dehumanized. That’s why somet say that Nons have no locus standi. In other words, the pinnacle of an exclusive apartheid. They have no Neighbor.

  11. To quote the pertinent part of Dr. Azmi Sharom’s emphasis on Reason :

    ” ……there is a tendency for all reason to go out the window. This is shameful because Islam have prided itself on being a faith of reason where knowledge and the written word were emphasized in the very first revelation…..” –

    This is contained in the Wisdom series by the humble servant of God , Muhammad , @ page 77 regarding the KUR’AN :

    ‘ The Kur’an was sent down in seven dialects ; and in everyone of it sentences
    , there is an external and an internal meaning….’

    Illustration : It may be unequivocal that in the context of its face-value injunction in the Kur’an on the concept of Jihad , is to declare Holy war on the Infidels (kafirs ) by the traditional understanding in strict or rigid sense of the prescription on hudud ( the literal sense ) –

    But the Noble Prophet in his capacity as the humble servant of God as the chosen Messenger, in the face of constant pressure from his followers in the incessant internecine wars, this is what he used to clarify to the them on the outer and the inner meanings : ” THE MOST EXCELLENT JIHAD (HOLY WAR ) IS THAT FOR THE CONQUEST OF SELF……” ( @ page 49 ).

    Those who hold dear on the outer rigid meaning do so by the allegorical prescription of the hudud, but for those who have understanding by the faculty of human reasoning, they go by the substance in the inner or the underlying meaning …..

    There are enough references that the ‘ People of the Book ‘ viz, the Jews, the Christians and also Muslims, are NOT in the definition of the term ‘ kafirs ‘ – they do seek for ‘ God ‘ , though perhaps in their own different ways by what was revealed to them…..

    In this booklet , it is stated ” Muhammad did not claim to be the founder of a new religion; his mission was to restore the earlier religions to their pristine purity. The Muslim believes in a chain of inspired prophets (from the past) who taught the same truths…..They believe in the Divine Revelations of all earlier Prophets…..” ( page 14) .

  12. With permission of our Blog-host , Dato’ Din Merican, I feel a sense of urgency to spill out something I had withheld for over 3 decades , I now feel the right time to take courage upon some matters of personal Conviction which should be shared….But dare I say it ? I am trying to say it , as to the reasons why ” ISLAM IS INDEED A UNIVERSAL RELIGION…….( it might take a bit of time and Effort , so I intend to do it a little at a time, step by step < kindly please bear with me ) . This Concerns Tributes by Western scholars , and I shall quote each of them in no specific order :

    1. ' The nobility and broad tolerance of this creed, which accepts as God-inspired all the religions of the world , will always be a glorious heritage of mankind. On it could indeed be built a perfect world religion ' – Duncan Greenlus, The Gospel of Islam (1948) .

    2. ' While Christianity in recent years have moved towards a social gospel, Islam
    has been social from the very start ' – Wilfred Centwell Smith, Islam in Modern History, London, 1946.

    3. ' The rise of Islam is perhaps the most amazing event in human history . Springing from a land and a people , alike , previously negligible , Islam spread within a century over half of the earth , sheltering great empires , overthrowing long established religions, remoulding the souls of races, building up a whole new world
    – the world of Islam . The closer we examine this development the more extraordinary does it appear. The other great religions won their way slowly, by
    painful struggle and finally triumphed with the aid of powerful monarchs converted to the new faith. Christianity had its Constantine , Buddhism its Asoka, and Zoroastrianism its Cyrus, each bending his chosen cult by the mighty force of secular authority. Not so Islam. Arising in the desert land sparsely inhabited by
    nomad race, …..Islam sallied forth on its great adventure with the slenderest human backing and against the heaviest odds. Yet Islam triumphed with seemingly miraculous ease and a couple of generations saw the fiery crescent borne victorious
    from Pyrenees…to the Himalayas, and from the deserts of Central Africa to the deserts of Central Asia . Preaching a simple , austere monotheism, free from
    priesthood or elaborate doctrinal trappings…….For the first three centuries of it existence (AD 650-1000 ) the realm of Islam was the most civilized and progressive
    portion of the (then) world. Covered with splendid cities, gracious mosques and quiet universities where the wisdom of the ancient world offered a striking contrast to the Christian West , then sunk in the night of the Dark Ages….., – Lortherop
    Stoddart. Ph.D, The New world of Islam.

    4. The Mohammedan Law which is binding on all from the crowned head to the meanest subject is a law interwoven with a system of the wisest, the most learned
    and the most enlightened jurisprudence that ever existed in the world – Edmund
    Burke, Impeachment of Warren Hastings.

    5. ' Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, restorer of rational dogmas , of a cult
    without images , the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness is measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he ? ' – period
    (intermission, shall try and continue with more…..with permission, thank you )

  13. sorry, kindly insert ‘ Lammartine , Histoire da la Turquie, Paris, 1854 ‘ after ‘ ….greater than he ? ‘

  14. Islam spread from the ‘ minority ‘ of one man in the Desert land of Arabia, within a hundred years to across half the world …… any man greater than he ? Even as he was the Chosen Messenger , the Noble prophet had always rebuked his followers for praising him – He used to tell them : ‘ I am only a Humble Servant of God ‘ despite numerous Miracles he performed .

    6. ‘ The day of Muhammad’s greatest triumph over his enemies was also the day
    of his grandest victory over himself. He freely forgave the Quraysh all the years of sorrows and cruel scorn in which they afflicted him, and gave amnesty to the whole population of Mecca…..It was thus that Muhammad entered again his native city.
    Through all the annals of conquest there is no triumphant entry comparable to this …
    ( after his exile to Medina ) – Stanley Lane-Poole – Table Talks of Prophet Muhammad, London , 1882.

    7. ‘ It must be acknowledged too that the Quran deserves the highest praise for its Conception of the Divine Nature in reference to the Attribute of Powers , Knowledge , and Universal Providence and Unity….and has proved that there are
    elements in it on which mighty nations and empires can be built up….’ – Rev.
    Rodwell, The Quran, London, 1919.

    8. ‘ To thoroughly comprehend the spirit of Muhammad or the soul of Islam , the
    student must recognize at the outset that Muhammad was no mere spiritual
    pedlar, no vulgar time-serving but one of the most profound , sincere and
    earnest spirits of any age and one of the greatest men that humanity has ever produced ; recognizing this , he will thus acknowledge that Islam is a profound
    and true religion, which uplifts its followers upwards into the higher realm of
    the Light and Truth ‘ – Major Arthus Glyn, Islam : Her Moral and Spiritual Value,,
    London, 1882.

  15. 9. ‘ Well then, if the Quran were his own composition other men could rival it. Let them produce ten verses like it if they could , and it is obvious they could not ; then , let them accept the Quran as an outstanding miracle ‘ – H.A.R. Gibb,
    Mohamaddanism , 1953.

    10. ‘ The Quran is remarkably down-to-earth in its discussion of good life. It is this
    combination of dedication to one God plus practical instructions, that makes the Quran unique ‘ – James Michener , Islam the Misunderstood Religion , an article in Readers Digest, May , 1955.

    11. ‘ We must not be surprised to find the Quran to be the fountainhead of the
    Sciences. Every subject connected with the heaven and earth, human life, commerce , trade is touched upon. In this way the Quran was responsible for
    the marvellous development of all branches of science ‘ – Hartwing Hirshchfeld,
    Ne Research into Exegesis of the Quran, London , 1920. ( bearing in mind that he was an ‘unlettered’ man ( Ummi) ‘

    12. ‘ I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind….I became more than ever convinced that it
    was not the sword that won a place for Islam….It was the rigid simplicity and utter
    self-effacement of the Prophet , the scrupulous regard for pledges , his intensive
    devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness , his absolute trust in God and in his own mission…..These and not the sword carried everything
    before them and surmounted every obstacle….’ – M.K. Gandhi, Young India.

    13. ‘ Muhammad possessed that combination of qualities which more than once
    has decided on the fate of empires. He declared , “There is but one God, and
    Muhammad is His Prophet ” . Whoever desires to know whether the event of things
    answered to the boldness of such an announcement, will do well to examine a
    map of the world in our time. He will find the marks of something more than an
    imposture. To be the head of many empires. to guide the daily life of one third
    of the human race, may perhaps justify the title of ‘ Messenger of God ‘ –
    William Draper, History of Intellectual Development of Europe, London , 1975.

    14. ‘ It was the first religion that preached and practised democracy ; for , in mosque when the call from the minaret is sounded and worshippers are gathered
    together , the democracy of Islam is embodied five times a day when the King kneel
    side by side and proclaim , ‘ God alone is great ‘ . I have been struck over and over again by this indivisible unity of Islam that makes a man distinctly a brother . When
    you meet an Egyptian, an Algerian, an Indian and a Turk in London, what matters
    that Egypt was the motherland of one and India the mother land of another ? ‘
    – Sirojni Naido , The Ideas of Islam , Madras , 1928.

    15. ‘ On the whole we find in the Quran a collection of wisdom which can be adopted by the most intelligent of men, the greatest philosophers and the most
    skilful statesmen. But there is another proof of the Divinity of the Quran. It is the fact
    that it has been preserved intact throughout the ages since the time of its revelation
    till the present time ‘ – Lausa Veccia , Apoligic de Islamisme .

    16. ‘ It will be seen , from the above , that a final and complete text of the Quran
    was compiled within twenty years of the death of Muhammad, and that this has
    remained the same without any change….It is to be regretted the same cannot be said of the Old and New Testaments ‘ – Arbothnot , The Construction of Bible and Quran , London , 1885.

    17. ‘ MUHAMMAD IS THE HOPE OF HUMANITY ‘ says Rev. S.M. Zwemer. –
    ‘ Islam began in the sixth century with a minority of one man who claimed
    to be God’s Last Messenger, is now challenging Europe and America ‘ to accept it. ‘

    18. ‘ Islam Provides a New Vision Of the Universe And a Clear Insight into Ethics and Religion – Professor Arberry …..

    19. ‘ Islam may Awaken Echoes of a Heroic Age ‘ – Professor Toynbee .

    These last two, are parts of a very lengthy Narratives……and there are more of the shorter Commentaries……. from another book. ( ‘ If God Willing ‘ to end my discourse herein….Thank you for your indulgence and patience …..)

  16. The Second Axial Age izzit, Abnizar?

    This a ‘simple’ discussion about the views of Karl Jaspers (my favorite ‘existentialist, besides Kierkegaard), Arnold Toynbee and Eric Voegelin. Islam and the Prophet may not be relevant in a ‘New’ Axial Age – of individuation and inner spirituality. ‘Pure’ Religion is more about outward piety and sheer superstition. That is – Form over Substance.

    The Golden Rule must Rule – no matter what faith you profess, and as many including i have said – there is NO such thing as a “Universal” Religion. Stop talking to yourself, for it seems that you are trying to convince yourself of the Faith you were ‘born’ into. At least i had a choice, you don’t. Is it fair-just-ideal?

  17. No…No…. those are Tributes by people of Eminence from the West, their views , CLF, not mine…..you can have yours, no problem , because to me ” Truth hurts but heals ” , if it hurts you that much, its is good, ” gold is treated under fire ” , and you should shine brilliantly in your own time……

    Form over substance ? its not a good reflection of you…..to me, if you care to reflect and fathom of the ‘ DEPTH ‘ of the Westerners’ Tributes…..it is really Substance over Form, so I do feel disappointed , this time.

    I think you seem to be ‘ stuck ‘ on your firmament , unable to extricate yourself on your firm conviction of Trinity , that’s your right, whereas the Prophet of Islam was sincerely firm on the concept of Unity…….

    But with the greatest apology, sincerely, I would not relish to go on serious debate with anyone , I merely tried by quoting other Eminent writers/scholars of the West
    because , more than anything else, we might stray towards OBFUSCATION…not Clarity…..so I shall refrain any further whatever….not good ……

  18. Kindly distinguish the meaning of “Pure” and “True”. Truth can only be found within you. God is NOT a religion. Or is God Dead? (Nietzsche). Should Religion or God change?

    You want to remain ‘pure’? Good luck. I prefer to remain true as much as i humanly can to my ‘Truth’, as i change. That is the Human Condition. I have accepted the boundary situations (see Jasper’s vid below) in my life, and am seeking my own way to the Great Unknown.

    Your “Ontology” or study of ‘Be-ing’ needs to be refined. My path is reason tempered with faith – but you have philosophers and scholars who are not even of your ‘religion’ to guide you in your reasoned plea.. Nothing original and pretty close to nihilism, me thinks.

    It is better when One understands the ‘environment’, or as Eric Voegelin says, the ‘Tenancy’ from which the religions originated. In the case of yours, a facsimile of Judeo-Christianity. The ‘truth’ is found in the Hejaz in the 6-7th century CE – be it in in War, Dukka (Pali:pervasive unsatisfactoriness), Desert or Water. The tension between the basic tenets of the faith and the outward (presented) liturgy and traditions is relevant in this Information Age. Memes are no match for Archetypes.

    There is no going back into the Dark Ages. Also note the first secular (religions were not used in administration), if not democratic state and empire in history was the founded in China, by the Chin. The legalist system is still being used in all it’s ‘glory’. So it’s wrong to blithely state that secularism is a “modern” phenomenon.

    Religion in all it’s manifestations is a spiritual experience, to me – not a Commune. The average Malay is trying to out-Arabize the Arabs, izzit? What is happening now, is equivalent to the the Great Schism between the ‘Pure’ Roman Catholics and the ‘Pure’ Eastern Orthodox. The Reformation has not even started, but will be more violent than the Catholic-Protestant crisis that led to the 30 years war, which ultimately resulted in the Westphalian Concord on ‘secularism’.

    I quote Voegelin once more: “The Law and the Prophets are for the Barbarians..”

  19. In your scurrilous attack of all Prophets , are you Detracting from your own Prophet, Jesus Christ ? – so you are not a Christian then , its good that you release your self from Trinity , by which you cannot hope to attain salvation , or perhaps you don’t need ? Good Luck .
    I detest most is the Art of Obfuscation, so I had anticipated from you earlier.

    I have no fear , because my faith on what is revealed , I stand steadfast and firm :

    RELIGION ” –
    No point in beating about the bush……

  20. Haha.., i’m not questioning your faith – only your methods – especially of cut and paste type. Sometimes the ‘copy’ gets obscured and ‘bushy’. No?

    I don’t detract or distract. I try to defeat self ignorance and am quite comfortable doing it. Question everything, but keep the Golden Rule in the Positive sense (viz: Do unto Others..,). You’re doing splendidly by questioning the Trinity. Kudos.

    So everything has been revealed to you eh..? By the Prophets? No mysteries at all? Such a dignified approach must be appreciated and applauded. Pureness of Purpose. No mockery intended. I’ll leave that to Quantum Entanglement and Synchronicity but most of all the Laws of Parsimony (Keep it simple, stupid!)..

    Btw, Jesus is my Christ (Anointed One) and i remain with the Trinity. Why? Because it’s an ‘Instinct’.and a ‘Mystery’. Stupid isn’t it?

  21. Since it’s Palm Sunday, i offer my palm to you.
    May Hosama be unto you, and:
    “Hear, O Israel, the Lord your God is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength..
    Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no greater commandment than that.”
    Wonder who said that? It ain’t in the Quran.

  22. The Muslim believes that if a doctrine like Trinity is ‘made and cut ‘ (or cut and paste as you say ) 354 years AFTER by Constantine, there is no authenticity in such a revelation. For authenticity, such must be ‘ revealed ‘ by the Prophet himself during his own life-time….., it shouldn’t be by someone else….. ? –

    ‘ cut and paste ‘ ? – excuse me, methinks the Church in trying to Interpolate the Glorious Name ‘ Allah ‘ into the Translated copy of the bible into Malay, WILL also amount to cut & paste…its not authentic , because it is not in the Original bible .

    ” Allah ” is at the final and end part , , in order to come to that, the Seeker must embark on his journey of a life-time through the entirety of the Koran before he ‘ knows ‘ , otherwise using without knowing would be very artificial…..

    The art of obfuscation is ‘ clever ‘ , but its not good…..I can guess why , to obfuscate
    all the Eminent thinkers of the West , who are very, very sincere and honest in
    their views , short of saying its hypocrisy , really is to TROUNCE them by obfuscation….I knew you wouldn’t accept those EMINENT thinkers…..

  23. Trinity?
    It’s a ‘Revelation’? Nope, not in a ‘classic’ sense. No reason needed in things of this ‘nature’. Akin to the Wave-Particle Duality of Matter, since it matters so much to you.

    It’s an ‘Experience’ first spoke of by Ignatius, Theophilus, Tertullian, Justin Martyr and the Church Fathers by the early 2nd century CE. Notice, i use the acronym for Common Era, lest greater mortals might take exception to A.D -Anno Domini. It was made Creedal (i.e Doctrinal) at the Nicea in 325 CE. The Cappadocian Patriarchs (i.e Turks, nowadays) concurred, but were conquered.

    Christians do not need to put the Trinity as their ‘Motto’, but they do put Christ and the Cross in the Center. Imagine an instrument of penultimate torture, that even the “H” mullahs are prone to copy crucifixion. Marvellous, huh?

    As for A****, you may keep it for yourselves. My Father has no Name, His only begotten Son is Jesus (Yeshua, for ‘purity’s sake) Christ (zero seminal infusion, as per your own Quran) and the Nameless Holy Ghost (Spirit, also for purity’s sake). Confusing? Nah. Experiential.

    Since, i’m not an ‘Eminent’ thinker, i think i shall ask the Pope his thoughts and experiences on this ‘subject’? And i’m not even a Roman Catholic.. Whom shall you ask? An Eminent Thinker.

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