August 8, 2011
PAS: No Decision on Dissident Hassan Ali
Hazlan Zakaria at http://www.malaysiakini.com
Aug 7, 11
3:56pm
PAS will set a meeting with both the Selangor Islamic Religious Department (JAIS) and the Damansara Utama Methodist Church (DUMC) to find out first hand what went on at the controversial raid on a fundraising dinner this week.
“PAS will go down to the ground and we will meet with both Jais and the church, the two parties directly related to the incident to find out what really happened,” party president Abdul Hadi Awang (left) told a press conference at its headquarters in Kuala Lumpur today.
The PAS central working committee which met today had already listened to the Selangor exco Hassan Ali’s version of what went on.
The PAS president stressed that Hasan was there as he is a member of the central working committee and not summoned specifically for questioning. “We have listened to his explanation, the rest are all media reports, which we take with a grain of salt. So we need to listen to the people involved,” said Hadi.
Asked why they needed to explore the topic further despite Hassan already having his say, Hadi said that while they have heard the Selangor exco’s explanation of what happened, now they needed to hear from others in the interest of fairness.
Bombarded with queries from reporters, he refused to say if the report from Hassan (left) was either inadequate or could not be relied upon.
Secretary-general Mustafa Ali, said that he will contact both JAIS and the Church and set a date for a meeting which will be soon.
‘Christians converting Muslims’
In the Wednesday night raid on the dinner, JAIS enforcement officers raided the Dream Centre, a hall situated in DUMC’s grounds, where the function was held and disrupted proceedings, picking up Muslims in attendance to give their statements as well as searching the premises.
Speaking in his capacity as the state exco in charge of Islamic religious affairs, Hassan Ali explained Jais’ raid as a move to prevent the proselytisation of Muslims by Christians. However this was vehemently denied by church leaders.
Several Malay dailies have reported that JAIS was acting on information that Malay language bibles were also distributed to Malays during such event. The Malaysians Aids Council, however, clarified that the dinner was a fund-raiser for Aids patients.
Hassan was also reported by a Malay daily as saying that he would gladly resign as exco in order to defend the Muslim Akidah.
‘Hassan still exco’
Quizzed on if the matter may cause a rift with the state government, Hadi said that there was no such thing. “We are a part of the state government. Without us there is no state government.”
As for Hassan’s status as state exco, Hadi said the meeting did not make any resolution or discussed that as it is under the purview of the MB and the Sultan to decide. “As far as we are concerned, Hassan is still part of the exco,” the PAS president intoned.
“We have no problem with him,” chimed in vice president Salahuddin Ayub who was also at the press conference.
Catholic Bishop laments PAS decision
Terence Netto@http://www.malaysiakini.com
Aug 7, 11
9:57pm
Catholic Bishop Paul Tan Chee Ing called the decision by PAS to meet up with the two parties to the issue of alleged Christian proselytising of Muslims in Damansara last week as “an equivocation, a temporising measure.”
“I’m disappointed, but given the nature of politics, this is to be expected,” said the head of the Catholic diocese of Melaka-Johor.
“I had hoped for a surgical resolution of the issue but this decision by PAS is a recipe for protraction,” he lamented.
“In the meantime, the suspicion of Christians as fifth columnists in a Muslim dominant nation continues,” he regretted.
“Here you have someone who has made an accusation for which he says he has the evidence. He has yet to show it.You don’t make an accusation on surmise; you make it on solid evidence. Otherwise you don’t make it, especially if you are a religious person,” commented the Bishop, who is concurrently president of the Catholic Bishops Conference of Malaysia.
“I don’t think I can be faulted for engaging in a spurious triumphalism but the Christian circumspection about politics is wise – render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s is an admonition by Christ about the nature of politics. You may now see why that is so because politics is an arena inherently inhospitable to truth-telling,” expatiated the Jesuit-trained prelate.
“You now have a situation where any Muslim so inclined can make an accusation against Christians in this country and it will incumbent on the latter to furnish a defence when the boot should properly be on the other foot – it’s for the one preferring the accusation to demonstrate the solidity of the evidence for leveling the charge,” remonstrated the Bishop.
“Thus you can see how Christians have now come to feel about their situation – that it is easier for the accuser to level a charge while the one being accused has gradually to backpedal in the face of inquisitors who are acting mala fide,” said the septuagenarian prelate.“This is not right,” he complained.
Din Merican: the Malaysian DJ Blogger 
Bishop Paul is right. PAS is giving room to JAIS to allege many accusations against Christians without having FIRST to provide evidence. Christians stand accused until the matter is proven true or false.
Now any liar can level charges against any church and it will be a long time before the liar is called to answer, if ever. And even if it is done, which is doubtful as seen in the past, it will be outside the public view. So accuse in public and retract in private.
I am disappointed in PAS. You want to be fair to listen to both parties? Do it before the accusation is made. Otherwise, give proof immediately. We still believe in innocent until proven guilty right?
I believe fitnah is very serious in Islam. If the charge cannot be fully proven, we shall see the seriousness of Muslims and PAS in particular about their faith. After all, JAIS and Hassan Ali both said there is proof and by it, they imply DUMC is lying.
PAS is playing politics. That speaks volume about their tagline “PAS untuk Semua”. It is afraid not of Hassan Ali, but of losing ADUN seat should this mad cap and irresponsible s.o.b defects to UMNO.
“We have no problem with him,” chimed in vice president Salahuddin Ayub. That is pure crap. Hassan Ali is a problem right from the start because he denied the chance to be Menteri Besar, instead of Khalid Ibrahim.
Why is this Bishop replying on behalf of DMUC, which is not Roman Catholic nor as per my explanation several threads ago, mainstream Methodist? Why is the Methodist Bishop and the Methodist Annual Conference silent? Does anyone commenting here have any idea what goes on in this Cross-less megamall-church? I have an inkling, because I’ve attended services there.
I am a Mainline Protestant Christian (not that it matters), who attends many churches on my own volition, irregardless of denomination and throughout the world. I do not ‘belong’ to this church. Like many of you, I see this episode as zealotry and fanaticism by an authoritarian entity. Yes, an invasion of religious ‘sanctity’ and sanctuary for political expediency.
Yet i also want to know, whether this particular church has violated the Constitution, or do they think their ‘Dream’ of God nullifies Caesar’s Law. Maybe not in this ‘Thanks-Giving’ Dinner, which by it’s very appellation has Religious undertones – but in other instances. If they have, they have brought upon themselves the odium of breaking a secular Law and should be punished accordingly. I’m sure as devout, fundamentalist, ‘rich’, legalistic Christians they will be more than amenable to such persecution.
Thus my question remains whether they have misguidedly elevated Christ’s Great Commission above His Great Commandment – To Love, as He has Loved. Or do they feel compelled to fight another legal suit, as had been in the past against their own Mother Church?
____________
Bishop Paul defends Christianity.–Din Merican
Bishop Paul Tan Chee Ing seems learned but impatient . His reactions , as carried by Terence Netto seem as instinctive as is Hassan ali’s.
PAS has to act based on its wisdom . Afterall , say what you must , but it is still only a political party. But political party or not , the leadership displays patience and this i think is a good quality even if the leadership does not seem as learned as is Bishop Paul.
If patience is a virtue , it should be practiced , especially by the prelate so that followers of the faith can see the value in being patient.
PAS had made a sensible decision to find out the facts of the case from both sides of the devide before arriving at any conclusion which is a very sensible approach. This is unlike the Star Wong Chun Wai approach which is blind/deaf to the extreme racism of his own Star and the UMNO controlled MSM while preaching moderation to others. The Star played up the MCA dumb criticism of the Penang handling of contracts and the JAIS case which is actually in conformity with the legal provisions enacted by UNMO. The Star lauds the manipulation of election rules by its criticism of those of Bersih and others who are protesting such manipulation and which are pushing for change. This nothing short of shoe polishing.
Just another attempt by certain parties to fan the flames of religious tension.
(Don’t be fooled or manipulated by these people).
I will still vote for my MP from PAS at the next General Election.
Let’s wait for the PAS investigation on the ground first. They have to do a thorough probe before making any decision on Hassan Ali. It will then be presented to the Sultan as head of the religion in the state.The Sultan has the final say.
It’s good to listen to both parties is it not? Bishop Paul should be more patient. Hassan Ali and JAIS should present whatever evidence they have, if they have any that is.
People power,
At least the church is going to be heard. It’s better than not being heard at all. If that accusation hasn’t been made, how could these people sit together to discuss things out? What’s there to discuss? JAIS and DUMC should be heard and PAS should listen to both sides.
C.L. Familiaris ,
I am flabbergasted by your question as to why Bishop Paul should reply on behalf of DUMC.
When one stands up for Truth, Justice and Rights you don’t need to look at one’s race or religion. Even a Muslim can defend DUMC.
Is Familiaris implying that all other Christians must shut up and leave the matter to DUMC to bear on its own?
If this can happen to DUMC it can happen to any church. Nay even your own home can be raided if you happen to have some Muslim guests.
This issue involves every Malaysian.
Dissident ??? HA is more of an opportunist; everybody knows he is eyeing Khalid Ibrahim’s MBship.Don’t be surprised , this lowlife will betray PAS to gang up with Umno to oust PR government like what happened to Perak as long as he is put up as the next MB of Selangor.
What is Truth, Sam 01? Justice and Rights should rightly be defended, by the aggrieved. But it also means that both sides of the Story must be heard. I do not prejudge DUC, but ask them to deny in totality the charge of prosetylizing. Have they?
Christianity does not need to be ‘defended’. It needs to be Lived..
Christ does not need warriors of flesh, blood and bone, His Word and Grace is sufficient. Being Flabbergasted is a condition of a conflicted soul, who has a constricted idea of Justice.
I always thought that listening to both parties in a dispute was the only fair way to a solution.
So why are some people getting worked up over this?
Pas members must learn to read Sun Tze Art of War or The Three Kingdoms to understand politic better. Even the west concedes that it is relevant in this 21st century.
the need to defend religion resulted in the crusades(?). we should practise the religion in its original form and not politise it according to our selfish needs..
DUMC should have been the first to make a stand, but they did not do so; they have something to hide?
you have a point there CLF which we did’nt see. the action by PAS is laudable but HA should be made to eat his shoes (who wears a hat nowadays?) if evidence speak against him.
Give PAS leadership a chance.
In Malay politics, never rush to come to a decision. The delay is a psychological weapon.
Yes, I support the decision of PAS to talk to both and then come to a decision, as and when appropriate. PAS is using the same tactic of UMNO.
Why is this Bishop replying on behalf of DMUC, which is not Roman Catholic nor as per my explanation several threads ago, mainstream Methodist? Why is the Methodist Bishop and the Methodist Annual Conference silent?- C.L. Familiaris
1) Bishop Paul is the head honcho of for the overall Christian community… some title he holds.
2) Yes, where the hell (or heaven) is the Methodist Bishop or the President of the Methodist Trinity Conference. This is the time to come out and defend the Methodist doctrine even though DUMC is a rebel church. Or is that the Trinity Conference and the Methodist Bishop want the DUMC leaders CRUCIFIED by the Islamic authorities as Jesus was crucified by the Romans at the behest of the Jewish temple Pharasees.
3) I suggest all Methodist Christians be converted to Catholicism. If all things fail, they can go back to the Pope to pull all the strings.
4) The Methodist Church has NO leader, not even in Malaysia. Bunch of wimps. They should become Catholics after this fiasco. No problem… you all can still meet up with Jesus in Heaven, even if you think the Pope is no better than you guys praying every Sunday in Church. If you still don’t want to be a Catholic, become a Buddhist then. You can still meet Jesus in your next life.
THERE MUST BE FREEDOM OF RELIGION AND FREEDOM FROM RELIGION.
NO ONE SHOULD BE FORCED INTO A RELIGION WITH A GUN ON HIS HEAD OR BY BIRTH.
EVERYONE MUST BE ALLOWED TO BE EDUCATED, MATURED, READ ABOUT RELIGION AND BE ALLOWED TO CHOOSE A RELIGION THAT APPEALS TO HIM/HER. ONE CAN ALSO HAVE THE OPTION TO STAY AWAY FROM RELIGION.
RELIGION IS NOT THE SOLUTION TO ALL THE PROBLEMS IN THE WORLD.
Please do not jump into conclusion so fast. Look at what “the muslim lawyers association(PPMM) just said, Jais not bound to the state gov. Does that mean another political sabotage to PR coalition in the making?
NO ONE SHOULD BE FORCED INTO A RELIGION WITH A GUN ON HIS HEAD OR BY BIRTH.- Dr. H C Chan
Easier said than done. The ones who are forcing someone into a religion is the PARENTS…. Parents forced their children into their own religion and never give the child to grow up to choose their religion:
(1) Muslim parents begin sending their kids for Quran clases at age 7 if not earlier and society forced these primary school kids to learn Arabic so they can recite the Quran by rote
(2) Christian parents bring their child to church when the kid is only 3 years old and then on to Bible classes and to church and to church camps where the brainwashing is done with finesse.
(3) So are Hindu parents and so are Buddhist parents.
Atheist parents allow their children to learn and question the different religions and seek truth and knowledge OUTSIDE religion. They allow their children to think and choose a religion when they are older, if they wished to.
In that regards, atheist parents’ children are better brought up.
By the way, Morality is not the monopoly of religion. Just look at the mass killing in Norway, the suicide bombers from the Middle East, the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka and the JAI idiots in Malaysia.
Religion… the scourge of mankind. And that is the universal truth.
The belief in Divinity in Religions… a deranged invention of a warped mind
Forget about religious divisions in Malaysia…
Malaysia has become by stealth, the 34th Province of Indonesia.
Hasan Ali problem is nothing compared to what UMNO-BN has done to Malaysia… It has sold the country to Indonesia out of political greed.
Read here: Malaysia: Welcome to 34th Province of Indonesia
Christ does not need warriors of flesh, blood and bone, His Word and Grace is sufficient.-C.L. Familiaris
Not too sure about that. Jerusalem fell to the Turks… and the Holy Land defended with flesh blood and bone by the Crusaders.
By the way, the “Crusaders” were beaten by the “Reds” in the Super 15 Rugby Union tournament in the grand final last month held in Queensland.
Hahaha.., good points Frank. But i still believe in One Divinity. Careful my friend, you’re starting to sound like another fanatic.., as others may not see you as i do.
The Methodist pastors (both TARC and the Chinese Annual Conference) i know, are pretty much fed up of the shenanigans and strange rumblings emitting from DUC, and will be watching, wondering whether such non-alcoholic drunken behavior or cultist behavior persists. DUCs eschew basic evolution, big bang cosmology, quantum physics or even basic psychology – although there are lawyers, dentists, doctors and engineers among the congregation. In fact some of the elders are professionals who found ‘Religion’ more rewarding monetarily.The accountants and businessmen rule, and their idea of success is measured in “Title-ogy”, viz. Dr, Dato, Tan Sri etc. They can’t even understand what Mammon means, much less dead-ducs.
As for PAS CWC’s forbearance, i thank them and urge them to come to a speedy conclusion to this sordid mess.
The Crusades, in a macrohistorical context should be properly seen as galvanizing a moribund Europe by the Latin Church. To a perceived external threat. It was an economic-political deal, with religious overtones. Jerusalem wasn’t the ultimate prize, Constantinople and the Byzantines ended up the main victims although the Levant and the century old Outremer kingdom suffered terribly. The Fatimid dynasty in Egypt were the allies of the Crusaders against the Seljuks. Who says the Muslims and Christians cannot be allies when the politics suit them?
you’re starting to sound like another fanatic- C.L. Familiaris
If some one calls me a religious fanatic, I want to buy him/her lunch.
I am fanatical about taking on the religious ideologues.
As I said , DUMC is like a golf club. Run by professionals to be profitable entity. Preaching christianity in DUMC is only a means to make more money, to send the church leaders on gravy-train trips, cars, good education for their children and nice houses and luxury amenities, all in the name for the love of God or Jesus.
It has nothing to do with the DUMC leaders’ religiosity, it is about doing little except to be a reader of ONE book and be good at it and able to yakity-yak on the pulpit for the vulnerable congregation to feel good about themselves and then that’s it. That is their ONLY contribution to the secular human society, and does NOTHING to improve the economic wellbeing of society.
If you cannot hold on to a good job and be an economic contributo r to society, become a pastor or a mufti.
I know it’s Ramadhan, but here’s to Frank and well.., his frankness.
For those who never have been to some of these business ‘Sanctuaries’, yes, it sometimes feel like that:
.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTrYE4a1BmE
Both religious parties are highlighting theirs rights and demand an answer from the authorities…..what worries me….the political benefits had manipulate this isue into personal gains and support. PAS and Islam are showing the public how rashly they screw up this time for supporting JAIS or JAIS and Ali are being scapegoat by BN…but in the end PAS will be left out from PR and his image will be tarnished….non malays will put a serious thought and fear….whether or not X PAS in the PRU 13..like myself even not Christian never wish my function spoil by the invasion of JAIS…neither the mosque also amok if others invasion their place even with court orders…. so brother Malaysian love the peace and harmony we had built since MERDEKA…and dont belittle others religion and stop using religion for political gains…so I hope this drastic act by JAIS need to be a full stop….can’t be more respect to others religions and show how sporting Islam are….and conduct investigation at more diplomatic way and accepted by the public.
There is only one way that all are going to come to agreement.
That being when religions / cults take prayer back to its source.
PRAYER BACK TO ITS SOURCE ?. WHAT’S MEANT BY THAT YOU ASK. ( Good question ( well done ) in deserving a answer.
The origin of ones prayer is meditation. Over centuries prayer its focus went more to the external material realm /VENTURED more as more as more into ideas and beliefs // with ever more intricate debate as explanation of creation / life its meaning as changing / the interchanging in variations of spiritual scripture
bringing division of nations / of race / color /ideas /belief / faith.
Thus solution for humanity an clear in grasp of understanding that prayer returned to its true meaning /upon a daily practice. Via meditation in turning the senses inward / resulting with an unfolding of the spiritual self. Not ideas. / Not beliefs. Not of a heaven a paradise that being /somewhere beyond the clouds but that of very practical spiritual experience / that brings an
clarity of understanding // which answering all ones questions.
The focus on the material has become strong /as being those whom may feel such task returning ones senses inward again but proving very difficult a task. Such attitude understandable yet it be once one starts the process // one is soon reminded it a act which the most basic part of human nature / the need the desire of meditation / in unfolding the spiritual self / is the ultimate desire of a human / restoring the bond with creation.
The purpose of creation is that it sustain human life / such the purpose of human life that via heart brain / there’s an ongoing development in understanding/experience. The purpose of life gradually understood/revealed through ones practical spiritual experience / the curtain of illusion drawn back / thus revealing creation / for humanity long last completing the journey home .
On PC search put (words of peace) on site an large selection of videos where Prem Rawat talks /explains the importance of meditation / the turning of the senses inwards // in one taking prayer back to its original intention / in one need not believing but through practical spiritual experience one in knowing truth.
Humanity blessed in having Prem Rawat as guide/ an teacher he is advanced in spiritual development /having dedicated his life in serving all humanity aiding ones spiritual understanding via meditation one’s spiritual experience is an unfolding reality.
_____________
Prem Rawat. Who is the spiritual leader? To know more about him please go to:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prem_Rawat.–Din Merican
August 9, 2011
This incident is a continuation of a stream of abusive statements that have been leveled upon the Christian community throughout the year. All of which have so far been baseless and merely serves to further widen the distrust amongst Muslims and Christians in Malaysia. It shows the arrogance of those in authority who choose to impose their own religious views without due consideration towards those who practise otherwise and brings to naught the visit by Najib Razak to the Vatican to promote Malaysia as a “moderate” Muslim country.
It is time to stop the religious attacks and the best way is for all faiths to pray for a government that can usher in enlightened leadership and peace so that all can live and let live according to their respective beliefs and creeds.
– Malaysia Chronicle
Muslim is a respective good religion….only minority Malays are not having true Muslim at heart….and made them barbaric and impulsive to run down the street telling they are empowered through religion and from his God to beseize anyone who not inline to their intention….what a disgrace to demand others not to comment their over-doing and “‘shut up””…No doubt they are muslim leaders but sadly no realizing their move and decision left behind racist feeling,…dominate towards others religion and its very wrong and disgusting move will bring havoc to all religions. What MB Khalid move is high respectable because he knew the raid was impulsive and disrespect to Christianity…quickly to resolve tense by apologies to Master Pope onbehalf of JAis and his MP childish act fm Hassan Ali…more less relevan to our Katak Ibrahim….and this prove they are still caring muslim leader in PKR…But today news there is still malays who pin-point MB Khalid wrong doing to act so fast for apologising to christain and accuse MB is a disgrace to Islam and Malays….from this news….prove that those who really too religious will be lost in humanity values and never admit their wrong doing…and accuse others even the fault arise fm themselves…Malaysia will be trouble and no more harmony safe living country if those fanatic religious followers around…..give a serious thought about this happening…will it benefit all if keep on repeating…paper will not diffuse fire…..cintai kejiranan mu dan hargai pencapaian Malaysia selama ini…..