August 5, 2011
Catholic Bishop Dr. Paul Tan challenges JAIS: Furnish Proof
by Terence Netto
Catholic Bishop Dr Paul Tan Chee Ing today called on Jais to “quickly furnish proof of their claim that there has been proselytisation of Muslims by Christians as they have claimed.”
“I implore them not to procrastinate on this matter like the authorities are doing with respect to an alleged Christian plot in Penang recently to dethrone Islam,” said the titular head of the diocese of Melaka-Johor, who is concurrently president of the Catholic Bishops Conference of Malaysia.
“Please quickly furnish proof of this claim so that Christians can take the appropriate corrective action and tender the requisite apologies, or do the obverse which is demand that an apology be issued for false accusation,” said Bishop Paul Tan (left) said in remarks made to Malaysiakini.
“This campaign of innuendo and insinuation against Christians’ subscription to a cardinal tenet of our constitutional structure, which is the respect for Islam as the federation’s official religion has gone on long enough,” he asserted.
“It’s high time these claims be proven to be substantive in which case Christians can take the necessary corrective and contrite action, or demand that Christian bashing be condemned and stopped,” said the Jesuit-trained prelate.
He noted with “great distress that that person who has preferred these accusations is from PAS – a party that these days is inclined to unify the Malaysian people rather than divide along them along sectarian lines.”
“Although a former president of this party (Mohd Asri Muda) was responsible in the early 1970s for the base canard that Christians were a greater threat to Malaysia than the communists, the party has since markedly altered its perspective and stand on national questions,” said the Bishop.
“Like many Malaysians, I wholeheartedly welcome this liberating development, which is why I am greatly distressed that the latest round of accusations against Christians emanates from their quarter.”
Is it true or false?
Bishop Paul Tan further noted that PAS is a party that upholds morality in public and private conduct. “No Christian worth his or her salt would ever be against this principle in life. Too often in politics, we are faced with people who make a pretense of public virtue while being squalid in private morals,” he continued.
“That this is not the case with PAS is something that their spiritual leader has sought by word and deed to transmit to the Malaysian people. We are greatly edified by his endeavour.
“This is why, ironically, the fact that the accusation stems from their quarter raises hope of its decisive and final adjudication: Is it true or is it false?” he said referring to Selangor exco Hasan Ali (left), who yesterday backed the JAIS raid on the Damansara Utama Methodist Church.
“This uncertainty has been going on for too long now it has furnished grounds for agent provocateurs to foist their poisons on the body politic.
“This must stop either by Christians desisting from unconstitutional conduct or by their accusers being made to account for the falsity of their claims. There are no two ways about this.
“However, I must emphasise it is the right of a person to believe in whatever he or she chooses to. Religion can be proposed but never imposed. That is respect for the sanctity of individual conscience. ”
Din Merican: the Malaysian DJ Blogger 
It happened where JAIS has jurisdication on Islamic Affairs under the watch of Pakatan Rakyat state government of Selangor. Dr. Hassan Ali who was strictly warned by PAS leadership has appeared on the scene again. PAS should consider more drastic action against this ultra. The Menteri Besar Khalid Ibrahim has condemned JAIS action, but is that enough? Furthermore, there is no comment so far from PKR’s Anwar Ibrahim.–Din Merican
Muslims have to express their displeasure at the way JAIS is being run. Islam is a tolerant religion which encourages everyone to do good deeds. If the church is doing a community service, there is no problem for Muslims to support it.
There is no law that forbid a Muslim from entering a church. Even our beloved DYMM Agung and Permaisuri Agung celebrated the wedding of Prince William at Westminster Abbey. What’s more, a church wedding is a religious affair. I doubt that just by entering a church, the faith of a Muslim will be compromised.
I believe in God.
But I don’t believe in religion.
Religion is like a gang or mafia wanting to increase its membership so that it becomes bigger, more influential.
Losing members will reduce its clout.
If ALL the religions maintain that STAND, what happens????
If there is to be religion, there must be Freedom of Religion.
Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Afghanistan ban all other religions.
Can America & Europe ban Islam so that there will be no problem with burqa in France and Minarets in Switzerland.???
Religion is NOT the answer to all our problems in this world.
In fact religions create more problems by causing wars & enemity.
Religions had killed people who refused to join them + religions had caused a lot of untold miseries to many more.
We cannot live without water and oxgen.
But we can live without religions. We won’t die if there is no religion.
Criticisms welcome
Aaahh!! Religion… the curse of mankind!!!
The most grotesque invention of mankind to divide and rule and kill.
The most tribal evil scheme ever invented by the human brain.
I believe in God.But I don’t believe in religion-.Dr. H C Chan
A statement made by those with a severe case of schizophrenia.You gotta see a shrink asap before your brain blows out,
JAIS terrorises Muslims and non Muslims at every opportunity. Thus it qualifies as a terrorist organisation . Only difference is its action is condoned by the UMNO-BN govt.
“Islam is a tolerant religion which encourages everyone to do good deeds”. Jamal Majid
A religion is judges by the actions of the followers. The happening in Malaysia does not reflect the goodness of Islam.
Absolutely in agreement with the Bishop – furnish proof or forever hold the piece. Read between the lines.
But just a few things to note:
* Although this church is considered part of the Methodist Trinity Annual Conference (TRAC), it’s pastors are not ordained by the main line Methodist Church – not that it matters for it’s congregation. It started as a cell church in the 80’s and has grown into a evangelical, charismatic, business (health-wealth) mall like mega-church, which is active in proselytizing and social outreach.
* DUC(Damansara Utama Church, as it is best to leave out the Methodist until their status is ‘confirmed’), has recently hosted several activities like Bersih 2.0 and has taken a stand on certain socio-political issues, quite unlike other strictly socially active, charitable churches. This makes them a target for political and legalistic agendas. A church (the congregation, not the building) is not to be seen as a political animal, even though it’s leadership always is (among themselves).
* The state ExCo in charge of ‘Islamic affairs’ is a known quantity and acts like a blunt ax, which bruises more than it polishes. He is the epitome of the rag-head mullah who sees genies and demons under every bush, but may not be destined for his quota of 72 houris. It is the State government who has to take partial blame if this episode is proven to be a FUBAR. The MB cannot just offer platitudes and regrets, as they are as culpable for not kicking this entity out when they had a chance. political expediency is not an excuse.
* This is a storm in a tea-cup. All of us, who are astute understand that it is political in nature. My unsolicited, unwelcome advice would be for DUC members to look unto themselves and make sure they do not cause irreparable damage to wannabe Christians in general. There is no such thing as Cheap Grace, nor the do and do, rule on rule.. methodology, which John Wesley never taught.
Any questions?
” Aaaahh !! Religion .. the curse of mankind “. – Frank
Hmmm .. i am quite certain it is not god nor religion that is the curse of mankind .
I am of the mind that mankind itself is the curse unto mankind . Relook at the rule of our prime minister of 22 years and you will be able to see how he manipulated and exploited us all ? Then take a look at Ibrahim Ali . How much he was paid to do what he did with Perkasa by the umno warlords i wonder. Do these two clowns help increase your faith in mankind?
Then we have this Hassan Ali fella. He has a doctorate to his name but yet he comes out looking like , inter alia , a clown . With educated clowns like this , does your faith in education or mankind itself get ENHANCED?
Don’t you think someone should find a circus for these clowns ? Or is Malaysia THEIR CIRCUS?
And oh btw, an apology by the State Gomen is simple and would require a Datukship for the Senior Pastor. Mercedes already got. Legacy important.
DUMC is like a golf club or rather a rebel club…. not associated with the mainstream Methodist church because the church leaders (the Methodist church refused to recognise them as pastors because they did not go through the formal ordaining process).
DUMC leaders are too sure of themselves and think they are the nearest interpreters of the Christian bible and in some ways, tend to push the envelope a bit too far with their religious ideology.
They could have that dinner in place outside the church compound knowing full well there are going to be Muslim guests and being held in the month of Ramadhan.
It takes two to clap. DUMC in some regard is somewhat insensitive to the fact that this is a month of Ramadhan and invitations to Muslims can be a concern for these Muslims, even if they have liberal views.
Having said that, there is no excuse for the idiots in JAIS entering a Christian place of worship and disrupt a dinner. Perangai sial.
DUMC leaders are social activists or religious anarchists.
So you have a religious terrorist organisation like JAIS confronting a group of religious anarchist.
What a way to go… a short cut of the desert religions’ Armargeddon. The Muslims will fight with the Jews for land on this earth, with the atheists as enthusiastic spectators,
And the Muslims will fight the Christians on the Day of Judgement with the atheists as the referee. (By then the Jews have all converted to Christians).
My only question is what on earth are the Muslims doing in the church during iftar time? Shouldn’t they be in the mosque, at home or elsewhere?
Believe me Frank, they are no Christian anarchists, but an antithesis to that term. See the reaction of the Senior Pastors at being ‘aggrieved’?
I think it is actually good to be persecuted, but then i’m ‘different’ – not that i’m gay.
For your edification, buddy:
http://www.cam.ox.ac.uk/research/cognition-religion-and-theology/project-summary/
Jeff, how’s you gerontophilia coming along? You may want to look it up.
DUMC has been a pain in the ass of the mainstream Methodist Church.
DUMC so happens able to attract a larger crowd to their congregation and thus is quite a rich church.
Before they think they have a big following, they thumped their noses at the Methodist Trinity Conference. I think they are pretty bunch of arrogant church leaders for not wanting to be part of the Methodist church mainstream.
How come the Methodist Bishop is as quite as a church mouse? I thought the Methodist Church has a bishop as their spiritual leader? I heard he spent more times on gravy train of overseas trip paid for by the donations of those Sunday worshippers.
My only question is what on earth are the Muslims doing in the church during iftar time?- Jeff the Man
What an idiotic question. They were there to attend to a DINNER. You know what they do at dinner. They don’t kneel to put food in their mouths. Silly. You think these 12 Muslims were there to be baptised or what??
Dumb!!!
I am of the mind that mankind itself is the curse unto mankind -.salmiah hassan
100% agreed.
As for those chaps you quoted, it is because religion makes them what they are as you described.
JAIS why didn’t you arrest PM Najib and Rosmah when they arrived at KLIA for meeting the Pope? Hasan Ali, if you don’t want the Malays to attend dinner at the church then provide Muslims with iftar and dinner every night at your house for the rest of Ramadhan. Why you so busy attending Buka Puasa at the various luxury hotels?
JAIS, don’t you have better things to do during Ramadhan, say like fasting, breaking fast and saying your teraweeh prayers? Your very action have just wasted your fasting to nothing but just being hungry. No points scored with Allah.
Hasan Ali says that the words Quran and Pray were used in front of Muslims. Hello Hasan Ali, pray tell me why the words Quran and Pray cannot be used in front of Muslims? Aren’t Muslims supposed to pray and read the Quran?
Since when has the word Quran and Pray become exclusive to Muslims only? Other religion also ask their followers to pray. Perhaps you are not familiar with other religion. Maybe you need to go back and study in Primary 1.
Quran is the word to describe the Muslim Holy Book, just like the Bible for Christians and Torah for the Jews. The Christians and Jews have used the word Quran everyday. Even the Sheriff of Los Angeles County read the Quran. Is that wrong? Even the US Congress have a Quran and many past US Presidents have read the Quran. Grow up lah Hasan, don’t be the Luncai. Perhaps you have very weak faith in being a Muslim that you fear non Muslims using the word Quran and Pray.
Frank
It’s not about being dumb. It’s being logical. All mosques offer free food for iftar so that the congregation can later perform the Terawih prayers. Definitely the church did not have such prayers after iftar.
Believe you me, there’s more to this than meets the eye. That is why MB Khalid has imposed a gag order on commenting about the raid. Let’s hear it from Datuk Hassan Ali. He’s from PAS and I am sure gag order or not, that guy will say something.
_____________
Read the AIDs President’s statement. –Din Merican
DUC ain’t rich if you factor in the humongous bank loan. That is why they have the hyperactive proselytizing, renting to all and sundry conference halls etc and their financial legacy projects. Over-geared in business speak. The Methodist Conference aren’t paying for that prime industrial-commercial complex (dreamed up by the senior pastor) they plunked themselves on, thus Dream Center. It’s a business and like all good businessmen, they smell opportunity from this FUBAR. Like i said, if you want ‘Religion’ – go to these churches.. Lot’s of wealth, health, technique and method – but no Cross.
Anyway, the Methodist Church has it’s own way of dealing with dissidents, but it ain’t pretty. There is actually no ordained ‘Pastor’ in DUC, and every average member is like a lil terrier holding on to their shepherd. The president of TRAC, i guess knows what’s it all about but won’t tell. But enough of DUC – it’s just best the stop using the Methodist or whatever mainstream label they want to use, because mainline they are not. Evangelical Charismatic Modern, would be more apt.
I’m more concerned for the 12 Malays actually, ‘cuz it really ain’t their fault. Spare them a thought or prayer.
Hassan Ali still harbors ambition of being MB of Selangor or a federal minister.Having lost his position as head of Selangor PAS, plotting to cause problems for the party and PR state government in the hope of being selected as an UMNO candidate come GE. Ambitious old prick.
____________
Hassan Ali must be dreaming, Tan Sri, to think that UMNO-BN will give him a seat to contest in the next GE. No body can trust this PAS character who is giving the party a bad image, in Selangor at least.
I congratulate on your Tan Sriship and wish you all the best. This title will be a boon to your career.–Din Merican
A religion is judges by the actions of the followers. The happening in Malaysia does not reflect the goodness of Islam.
Sam01
That’s the mistake many atheists made. You don’t judge a religion by its followers. You judge by its book of revelation and its teachings. There are many shades of followers and there are also many hypocrites who claim to be its followers.
You are grossly mistaken if you think a follower of a religion including Islam is a perfect man.
I want to hear what JAIS has to say about this. Why are they keeping quiet?
Sam01,
If you judge a religion by its followers, of course the religion is not going to be perfect. No human is perfect. Since there were a lot of atrocities committed by atheists, can we say all atheists are evil?
Let me be honest, there is NO political fallout amongst the Christians or other non-Muslims. They will all the more solidly back PR, knowing that it’s UMNO’s proxies who are doing the botched hatchet jobs.
The problem is what the PAS Center ought to do with types like this Hassan, knight of Fear and Doom? If they can’t get rid of thorns like these, forget about the Rosebush.
Gerontophilia, Jeff, does not mean that you are logical, or even reasoning.
In what context were the words Quran and pray used? If they have the evidence then show it to us. Don’t portray us, muslims, like a bunch of paranoids.
In Malaysia there are 2 sets of law; one for the criminals who plunder the country and never get arrested and the other for the rakyat who will be thrown in jail just for wearing yellow T-shirt
In Malaysia there are also 2 sets of truth; one which is supported by undisputable evidence and the other based on words uttered by some people who are running the country to the ground. For the latter group, their words are divine, so much so that all they need is to touch a holy book and utter some words, lo and behold they are clear of all suspicions of accessory to murder.
To cut the long story short, what Hasan Ali says is proof enough!
If Najib can go see the Pope and not get arrested when he returned to Malaysia, do you think they care about getting any proof to justify the raid.
C.L. Familiaris
Gerontophilia. Very apt. I like elderly woman. it’s got to do with me being the eldest child and Momma’s boy. Didi is to be blamed too. She has not say aye to my marriage proposal.Bwahaha.Okay Good nite. Way pass my bed-time.
Sorry Jeff. Don’t think I’ll make the cut. Not old enough and don’t think can compete with Rosie.
” In Malaysia , there is 2 sets of laws – one for criminals who plunder the country and never get arrested and the other for the ra’ayat who will be thrown into jail just for wearing yellow t- shirts. ” – sunshine
Exactly .
The exchanges so far convince me that Malaysia IS Truly Asia…
Hasan Ali and Ibrahim Ali…
Same genes??
The only “Ali” in Malaysia you can trust today is “Tongkat Ali”.
You forgot about Ali the Baba.. A system of great antiquity.
Look like DUC members (and others elsewhere being led into the mirage of property) have not registered the Calvary Church affair on their radar. They may be contributing to a local “sub-prime” collapse – at least in recycled urban real estate. What can one say – blessed are the meek? And when will anyone start talking about zakat?
The Malaysian Ali Baba now has 39 thieves and in looking for the 40th to make it complete. Wonder who will be recruited to join as the 40th. Lost Malay votes, add another Malay to the team, lost Indian votes add another Indian Minister to the team. Lost Muslim votes, maybe add Hasan Ali so the group is complete Ali Baba and 40 ehem ehem Me I like Ali Baba Bujang Lapok.
Hahaha., here comes the radioactive fallout, from the Source, helped tremendously by an unwise business entity, called a DUC:
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/christian-groups-on-drive-to-convert-muslims-malay-papers-report/
I believe in God.
But I don’t believe in religion.
All Prophets claim to be the intermediary sanctioned by God !!! BUT God has never acknowledged them. ALL ARE ONE SIDED CLAIMS.
Religion is NOT about the Truth.
Religion is about unsubstantiated beliefs/claims, myths, rituals, irrationality and even lies.
Religion is like a gang or mafia wanting to increase its membership so that it becomes bigger, more influential.
Religion wants POWER and money.
Read History.
Remember Roman Catholic Empire – Christianity is an Imperial Power.
Remember the Caliphates & Ottoman Empires – Islam is an Imperial Power.
Religion will die if it has no money.
That is WHY religions extort money from its followers by tithes or zakat or donations.
So the more members the more money can be collected. OK.
Why don’t religious leaders print God Currency???
They are afraid MAN will not accept God Currency!!! What does that mean??? Ha ha ha !!!
If religious leaders claimed that they were doing God’s work & have close contact with God, why don’t they ask God to send money to them???
Losing members will reduce its clout.
Most religions get members by FORCE and coercion and even threat of death and ostracise.
If ALL the religions maintain the STAND that no follower can leave the religion, what does it mean?
If there is to be religion, there must be Freedom of Religion.
Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Afghanistan ban all other religions.
Can America & Europe ban Islam so that there will be no problem with burqa in France and Minarets in Switzerland.???
Religion is NOT the answer to all our problems in this world.
In fact religions create more problems by causing wars & conflicts.
Religions had killed millions of people who refused to join them + religions had caused a lot of untold miseries to many more.
Many natives in South America were exterminated by the Spanish Catholics. I was told about it in Uruguay and Argentina.
Apparently Muhammad, Said & Muslims killed about 800 Banu Quraiza Jews.
Religions fought like in Crusades.
Religions will continue to fight.
Can we live without water??? NO
Can we live without oxygen??? NO
Can we live without religions??? Yes.
There are many atheists.
PRAY TO GOD DIRECTLY. Your relation with God is personal.
If you pray to God directly God does NOT ask you for tithes, zakat or donations.
God don’t need money. It is religion & religious leaders who need money.
So often we read religious leaders used these money for their own luxury and comfort.
Religion is for the gullible, the naive and the ignorant
Criticisms welcome
Racists hate other races.
Racists think their problems are caused by other races.
Racist willl ostracise, intimidate & even killother races
Racists hate God for creating other races.
Racists believe more in religion than in God.
Er.. Dr Chan, the normal condition of man is oblivion. What you are ranting about, is just that. So you are a Theistic Atheist? Any Scripture?
My buddy Frank, otoh is an Agnostic Buddhist, while i like many others are Theists – with or without ‘Religion’, but with a Scripture (Myths to some) to dwell on.
heveab, welcome. Calvary Church has it’s share of controversy and SNAFUs. Their senior pastor is a Tan Sri, mainly so that the SB stops recording their sermons which recently have become socio-anthropology and psychology courses 101. Their Calvary Center trumps Donald Trump. Need i say more?
My tansri is from a SUN TAN and its FREE ! Better than the title and I am a wheeler dealer, operating on ,my own, so no need for career advancement. Cheers Mr Blog host !!
___________
I see you are Tan Sri celop from up north. You wheel and deal. I hope you are not caught with a long position on the US dollar last week. If not, you are bound to sakit.Even the teloqbesaq cannot help.–Din Merican
Saturday August 6, 2011
Learn about each other
THE recent Selangor Religious Department (Jais) raid of the Harapan Komuniti event held at the Damansara Utama Methodist Centre should be condemned by all Malaysians.
This dinner, which was organised to commemorate and honour the work of this non-profit organisation as well as its supporters and beneficiaries, is demonstrative of how we are united in a common concern and care for those living on the margins of society and who are less fortunate than us, regardless of their ethnicity and religion.
The manner in which the raid was conducted, the unspecified complaint, which was never shown by the Jais officers, and the disrespect shown by it towards the sanctity of religious places speaks volumes of the tendency for the lack of respect for other religions, unaccountability and a culture of impunity.
The actions of the Jais officers appear to be that of a bully. It was bad enough that the so-called complaint was not substantiated, but the officers were not even able to produce a copy of the actual complaint.
Refusing or being unable to produce a warrant, especially when entering private property and religious places, is unacceptable.
Just as we ask that non-Muslims should respect the sanctity of our places of worship and the practices of our religion, we Muslims must also do the same for theirs.
It is disappointing that Selangor executive councillor Datuk Dr Hasan Ali has defended the raid by saying that 12 Muslims had participated in the dinner event at the church premises, and that this was proof of proselytising.
So what if there were Muslims at the dinner? This is proof of nothing other than that they were there to show their appreciation to Harapan Komuniti, an NGO which is involved in charitable community work.
I, too, have attended weddings, discussion sessions and dinners several times in churches, temples and mosques.
The Prime Minister himself met the Pope in the Vatican. Is that proselytising?
We are reminded again of the 2006 incident where the spread of unsubstantiated wild rumours through SMS concerning the supposed conversion of Muslims in Perak, resulted in 1,000 angry protestors gathering outside a church in Ipoh.
It was later revealed that the church was not converting Muslims but was instead holding its first Holy Communion service for 98 Catholic children.
That incident, which implicated the Perak state Mufti, was due to the same paranoia and phobia which had been used to justify this raid: the conversion of Muslims.
These incidents are eggs on the faces of moderate Malaysians, regardless of whether they are Muslim or not, especially when the self-righteous actions are later proven to be based on wild and unsubstantiated allegations, paranoid delusions or simply irrational fear due to ignorance. We end up looking foolish and being terrified of bogeymen.
Incidents such as these could be read as harassment, bullying, intimidation or worse, evidence of religious tyranny or the denial of the right to religion.
There is an urgent need to increase the quality of oversight and accountability of the state religious departments.
Who are the religious authorities accountable to? Where is their check and balance?
We must begin to dispel the perception that the religious authorities are a law unto themselves.
I am glad that Mentri Besar Tan Sri Khalid Ibrahim immediately expressed his regret over the incident. Indeed, the Selangor government must take to task the persons responsible.
There are many fears, false beliefs and misunderstandings which are born of shallow and ignorant understanding of other religions.
The best way to begin to remedy this is to address the ignorance and make a serious effort to learn and educate each other. I suggest we start with ourselves and the Jais officers.
AZRUL MOHD KHALIB,
Kuala Lumpur.
Enough is enough before more damage is done
I propose to declare all mission schools are for Christians only
In case we will be charge of other things too inc conversion & proselytisation
time now to bargain our schools back for the mission Christ taught us