October 27, 2012
On the Islamic State
by Azril Mohd Amin(10-25-12)@www.malaysiakini.com
President Sukarno, Founding Father of Indonesia, was in Central Kalimantan on one occasion, directing the design of Palangkaraya to become the capital of the entire republic.
His design is still on the board, and there is recent debate whether to move the entire governmental structure to that location.
All three Islamic-based political parties have suffered losses in recent parliamentary elections. Furthermore, government workers complain bitterly at the overcrowding in present-day Jakarta.
Sukarno chose Palangkaraya to take the ‘leadership spotlight’ off of the Javanese who had ruled much of the area for many centuries.
The local ethnic and religious mix there was quite varied, and so he took the occasion to deliver an infamous speech in which he declared that Indonesia must NEVER be an Islamic state, and the Indonesian government absolutely insists that Indonesia (under the state ideology known as “Pancasila”) is an entirely secular government.
Kalimantan would have been a good location to get the “spotlight” off Islam as the dominant force in the modern-day republic, if that is what the Indonesians really want.
The long-term effects of using “Pancasila” to replace Islam as a value and ideology base have been bitterly debated for a long time. President Suharto effectively ended the debate by defining Pancasila as the ONLY legal basis for Indonesian governance and law.
One religious teacher of my personal acquaintance was actually buried in the ground up to his head and fed only water for two weeks, in punishment for teaching his students that Pancasila was unIslamic.
What has been the result of this Pancasila deliberate displacement of Islam?Aesthetically, the Islamic majority of Indonesia is quite hidden compared to Malaysia, as one can see in the totally secular design of Jakarta architecture, as well as such phenomena as no tudung at all on TV. If a Martian suddenly landed in downtown Jakarta, he might have no idea what sort of country he was in.
Locals justify the lack of Islamisation of their city environment by saying that according to the principles of Pancasila, the non-Muslim Indonesians must not be offended by Islamic design and practice in public areas.
Even the national Istiqlal Mosque was designed by a Christian architect with a central dome supported by the “magic Christian number” of twelve columns.
A large part of Malaysia’s recent successes in the modern world are due to government support of Islamic style and practice, in spite of these policies causing such dread and fear in the non-Muslim countries, obviously due to lack of proper understanding and media stereotypes about Islam.
Islamic policies give our people pride and self-esteem, thanks to the genius of those who were not afraid to position Islam as the religion of the federation.
The implications brought about by this special position were in fact once translated into real policies used to be protected by our caliph in Istanbul, but must now be re-acquired, sometimes painfully, Islamic state-by-state.
In fact, a truly enduring model of Islamic governance was the brilliant Abbasid reign in Andalusia (modern Spain), which lasted almost 700 years. And the downfall of that model was exacerbated by the incredibly “dirty fighting” of the Catholics, Isabella and Ferdinand, king and queen at that time.
If you insisted that God was One, these monarchs created the Inquisition to torture you until you declared “God is Three”.
With their plunder literally stolen from the Andalusian Muslims, Isabella funded Columbus’ discovery of America, with its following model of freemasonic secular governance in the USA. His voyage took place in 1492, the exact same year as the final fall of the Muslims at Granada, in their battles to preserve the Andalusian Muslim legacy.
As has refreshingly been pointed out by the Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department, Mohamed Nazri Abdul Aziz, Malaysia has never been declared a secular nation and the federal constitution made no mention of the word ‘secular’.
And even if we prefer not to call Malaysia an “Islamic state” due to the loaded content of that phrase, and also due to the considerable variety of definitions of “Islamic state” in the different Islamic legal schools of thought, we are still nevertheless engaged in the critical task of forming a Muslim polity that need not bow down to the mobilisation of Western secular forces, such as the United Nations.
We are in fact attempting to form a model of a state following the constitutionally enshrined religion of Islam, which can help the entire Muslim world to resist the secular aspects of western liberalisation (for example, the LGBT demands for legal and public recognition), as well as make up for the hundreds of colonial years after the 1492 fall of Andalusia, during which Islam’s undeniable enlightenment in the arts and sciences was hijacked by the secular west.
And so, it is up to Malaysia more than any other Muslim country to create at least some implementation that would most closely approximate the Ummah we originally had under the Prophet himself (may Allah’s blessing and peace be upon him) in multi-racial Madinah Al-Munawwarah.
Malaysia is struggling manfully to strike this balance. We can be justifiably proud of our downtown area and its peoples, which no Martian would mistake for anything other than a Muslim city.
We can find tudung galore, as well as many calls-to-prayer and other religious reminders for Muslims on the public media.Yet, although the 35 percent non-Muslim citizenry worries much about “hudud” and even sometimes the Azan being too loud from their local mosques, they prosper. They do not care to return to their ancestral countries.
Instead of complaining that the balance is not right this way or that, we should give thanks to Almighty Allah SWT that our country is really the only one in the world that is trying to achieve this balance in a fair-minded and Islamic way, which still requires fairness to all religious practices within her borders.
What matters most is the spirit to achieve the actual Islamic practice which has been and will be ongoing in our country’s daily governmental, legal, and public lives.
AZRIL MOHD AMIN is Vice-President, Muslim Lawyers Association of Malaysia.
The Islamic State is a Mirage and if we pursue this idea, we can only create a divisive nation. Look at Pakistan,compared to our neighbour, Indonesia and Turkey.
What we need is a people-centered government that is accountable, honest and competent. Let us keep religion out of the picture. I am in favor of a clear separation between the state and religion. Religion should remain private, between man and His God. There is nothing wrong with our Federal constitution.–Din Merican
“As has refreshingly been pointed out by the Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department, Mohamed Nazri Abdul Aziz, Malaysia has never been declared a secular nation and the federal constitution made no mention of the word ‘secular’.” — Nazri
Is this the latest this country bumpkin has to say?
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck what is it if not a duck?? You can call it Mitt Romney but it is still a duck.
The First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution prohibits the state and federal governments from the following activities by that Clause:
1. aiding or prefering one religion
2. aiding all religions, unless the aid is merely incidental to the secular purpose of the legislation
3. forcing or influencing a person to go or remain away from a church
4. punishing a person for entertaining religious beliefs or disbeliefs
5. participating in any affairs of any religious orgainization or group
The First Amenment reads:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press or the right of people to peaceably assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances”.
Do you see the word “secular” anywhere in the First Amendment? Yet the USofA is a secular state. There is a clear separation of religion from state.
The country’s Federal Constitution of 1957 has been amended more times than anybody cares to count. Little is left of the original Constitution. The original Constitution of 1957 is today unrecognizable.
The contitutionality of the amendment made to Article 121 by (1A) in 1988 has yet to be tested and is open to challenge.
I think the debates on this issue s a trap laid by some master politician to divert the attention of the people from the real issues of kangkong and belacan that some family cannot afford while some big monkeys and their children are splashing their cash to buy votes.
Pakatan Rakyat should remember the wisdom words conveyed by Ven. Mongkut the Great that “It is the economy, stupid”, if they want to win votes.
OK. I have no clue what he is talking about. He is a lawyer. He is discussing statehood but all his evidence and criticism are superficial. There is no fundamental argument FOR that is not superficial other than to attack the superficial weakness of secularity. Where is the argument that it leads to better control, better accountability, better awareness, better growth prospect, better human productivity and solving of problems rather than to attack and hide them?
This guy was trained as in law or religo-politics?
One more thing. I lived in Spain. The Andulusian empire did not Andulusian Muslim has mostly to do with internal fighting – feudal collapse. Isabella and Ferdinand a champion of Christiandom no doubt did only what was natural then..
The dishonesty here on Andulusian betray the writer’s fundamental hating
Only 3 words. KEEP RELIGION OUT ! we are a secular country whatever UMNO and Nazri says, Have been and must and should always be! The suggesion of pushing for an Islamic nation will further push our people towards religious and racial separation and trouble which this country does not need.
Hang Tean dok naik kerbau lagi noh??
Not sure what or which way these Islamic scholars are going in talking about an ” Islamic State”?
i can only suppose that this desire or ambition emanates from the Usual ” Islam is a complete way of Life “. Pray, can anyone define this to a kind of precision, or to a reasonable degree of Certainty, that enables Humanity to craft out a Constitution in a ” Scientific ” way that distinguishes the moral or the spiritual plane from our very real existence concerning our temporal world ?
After all what is ” Secular ” if not that which has to do with THIS worldly things of temporal nature ? And, may i add, we have all kinds of Sciences, science of law, science of accounting, science of engineering, not to mention the science of jet-propulsion based on the law of motion….etc ?
Making our Constitution Secular is the only Scientific way that makes things Precise to a reasonable degree of Certainty, although not in absolute terms. More precise than this ” Islam a complete way of life” which is as wide as our Universe…. so, making this Secular is in no way Incompatible with the tnnets of Islam, on the contrarty it is ” compatible ” ALTHOUGH THEY ARE KEPT SEPERATE .
i tend to agree with dinobeano & Mr Bean, that we have to keep this Seperate, although it is compatible…. ( period ).
It is interesting to note that in his book ‘Islam and the State’ the author P.J. Vatikiotis admitted that “the basic structure of political ideas in the Koran though activist and militant, is somewhat neutral….” .
PS
In that specific sense, pehaps, it can be said that Islam is All-Encompassing….INCUDING things Secular – that i suppose is how Liberal ” Islam ” is, but not mixing things up from two different spheres or realms of ” realities “….
Thanks bigjoe for apt correction of that idiot writer – about the Andalusian history. The Ummayads last stronghold that was vanquished under the “Reconsquita” of the Christian principalities united.
I guess he also disparages the Holy Trinity, in very demeaning manner. Never will a Christian claim “God in Three”. Misunderstanding and misquoting something does not make one a genius.
This piece is so full of holey shit, i’ll let you guys figure it out.
Oops: “God IS Three”. Apologies.
It is Islamophobia. We are so convinced of the superiority of the western way of life, of western moral and politics. Thus, anything that is non-western has become anathema to us. So much so that xenophobia of Islam has become a permanent feature of our psyche.
Islam begins and will end with the Al-Qur’an. Today, the Al-Qur’an has shaped the civilization and outlook of over a billion people. And yet we would say that the aforesaid outlook is only fit for civilization in some remote kampung or village in the hinterland.
What if Muslims can rule nation(s) or for argument sake the world justly and competently? What would happen to the dream of a universal polity of secularism? What would happen to westerncentrism and for the present power and glory on this earth?
_______________
Keep on dreaming. We will never rule anything. We are fair behind and remain backward if we depend on the Ulamaks and Mullahs to preach Islam to all of us. We should learn by reading the Quran to gain full meaning of what it means to be a Muslim. Think for ourselves. Jihadists are giving Islam a bad name.–Din Merican
It is not a dream. It is just an opinion. A range of opinion is better than a quantity of opinion.
Mongkut,
Kalau tak naik kerbau nak naik apa lagi Mongkut?. Bila hang nak balik mai tengok kerbau kita sama. Tak lama lagi hang nak naik kerbau tu juga la pi jumpa virgins.
Tak pa Tean. Hang sabaq dulu nah. . Kita tunggu kerbau Dato. Dato dah sembilih kerbau dia baru baru ni. Jadi kena cari kerbau betina yang lain. Tapi hang jangan naik tengkok kerbau. Hang naik belakang atau pungkoq kerbau. Biar Dato dudok di depan. Sabaq Tean. Hang dah lama betapa kat mana??
There was a suggestion by some smart ass in PAS that Malaysian architecture should reflect the national aspiration to transform Malaysia into an Islamic state and do away with the vestiges of another era, and that the Buddhist architecture of Wat Siam along Lorong Wat Siam where Dato used to play hide and seek with the nurses in Aloq Setaq be replaced by Muslim architecture complete with minarets and loud speakers.
Hang setuju ka Tean??
Kalu gini hang nampak gaya kena pakai serban la kalau Pakatan form the next government. Kena jugak sunat. Selama ini hang dok pakai 007. Kena tukaq dengan serban.
Here a Syrian born Saudi describes how life is like with 72 virgins. God has given a man with the strength of 100 men, he says. Yet in Syria today they are killing each other perhaps to keep their numbers down so they could have enough virgins for themselves. They keep women like that Malala girl from Pakistan ignorant and uneducated so they would not look at men other than their husbands. This calls for a rebuttal from feminists like Kathy and Didi so that men like this Hasan does not go amok groping women wherever he goes. Hasan thinks women are God’s gift to him.
____________
This guy is sex obsessed with vivid imagination. Is this the way to motivate a Muslim by promising him 72 virgins in the Hereafter? I give up.–Din Merican
Don’t give up, Dato. We can work to change some men and some women but not all men and not all women. Here the world gets to hear a Muslim woman from Malaysia says it all, the role of a woman is to “obey her husband, fulfill his desires more than a first class prostitute can do”. We want to know what Kathy and Didi think. We already know what Hasan thinks.
When I first viewed it on CNN, I almost fell off my chair. Here a woman in Muslim Malaysia likens a married woman to a prostitute !! This is what Najib’s 1Malaysia looks like? Has Malaysia changed that much since I left decades ago?
Testosterone driven Gen. Tok Cik though now retired still shoots from the hip. To supplement the Obedient Wives Club, he may want to open Malaysia’s first VIP Emperor’s Club so PAS would find itself one step closer to their dream of an Islamic state. According to this school of thought, how else would you provide training for a woman wanting to get married to be a first class prostitute?
For 55 years Muslims have ruled Malaysia from the government right up to the King. What have we to show for it? So what Islamic state are we talking about? Initially Islamic Banking and now with OWC it’s Islamic Bonking. Institute Kemajuan Islam or whatever that means.Isn’t Islam for all people and for all times, so what development are we talking about?
Islamic College, Islamic Universities, Islamic this and Islamic that and now many common institutions carry Islamic names, no longer recognized or in Bahasa Malaysia. Everything is Al-this and A-that, Al-mengelabah, Al-raba raba. I’m losing my Malaysian identity, and soon may have to change my name to Al-Orang or An-Nas.
A blinkered article by a lawyer quite ignorant of proper history but full of prejudices (“LGBT”). He is a mirror of the equally blinkered right wing Republicans in the US who interpret the Constitution there as religious in nature.
Al-Bukhary followed by Al-bukamari. What next? You said it all Al-Orang.
JAWI I hear has produced a manual “Sex the Muslim Way”. Those smart asses with skull caps and salt ‘n pepper beards have their sights on earthly pursuits and pleasures and are unwilling to wait for their turn at the 72 virgins. While pursuing their earthly pleasures, they ask why not get rich in the process? . And so they have come up with this ideal of ‘halal condoms’. The only way to have sex the halal way they say is to have sex with halal condoms and so they issue the franchise to themselves. People like Hasan believe them and have stacked a year’s supply of halal condoms in anticipation of a price surge in a seller’s market. . What I can’t figure out is why edible and batek colored?
There’s nothing that so endears a commentator on Islam to a Muslim audience than to detail out how bad the Muslims are and Islam is.
Perhaps our Kathy in Down Under can fill in the blanks for us ignorant folks.
Azril is entitled to his views which need not be agreed to by all. One point – the Abbasid reign did not encompass Andalusia which remained under the remnants of Ummayad rule until its demise at the end of the 15th century AD.
Despite the variety of Islamic State definations by the various Muslim schools of thought, all agreed that an Islamic State is ruled under the Shariah Laws derived from the Quran, Sunnah & Hadiths. The state does not depend on any man-made Constitutions. In this respect Malaysia is not an Islamic State (as admitted by Azril too) but perhaps can be categorized as a Muslim country based on its majority of Muslim population. Comparing Malaysia with Medina al Munawarrah may not be appropriate. In an Islamic State, Islam as the religion is not separated from the state but freedom of worship is allowed and the Ummah comprises all the citizens of all religious following including pagans of that state.
Bean, those ‘halal’ condoms are made from sheep intestines slaughtered in a halal manner. Yeah, they are edible but i heard that’s it’s a bit chewy and need better oil and condiments. But too much msg, might cause untoward priapism.
I just hope they didn’t stick a compass on it, like they do to ‘halal’ cars.
You know, orang malaya, they have really gone overboard with the Arabization bit, and even the Arabs are looking askance at the bastardization of their culture. I heard that a Mid East Mega-Sheikh, when asked to invest in this heaven of rip-offs just said simply: “No need all the sales talk. Just tell me the ROI in 3 years. Anything less than ‘x’%, go take a hike up the highest sand-dune.” So ends the conversation from Halal-Land. Our equivalent of Harrods and Macy’s are kinda like KR1M.
The Omanis laugh their heads off at the attempts to ‘out-Islamic’, but then they are from another ‘sect’. And if anyone perchance lands in UAE, Money is God – don’t leave home without it.
Islamic state lead by who? The likes of Zul Nordin? No, thank you.
Thanks Mr Bean for the confidence, but sex is , well , sex. If you choose to sell yourself for sex, there are cosequences,mostly being dis ease and mistreatment and it shows a self esteem in my opinion. If you choose to think there are 72 virgins floatin somewhere to please only you ( btw the Koran doesnt say this) ,then you are obssessed with nothing other in life than women and , if you choose to marry and have children and having a loving relationship, with deeper meaning to it than mere sex, than the consequences are that you have a family, loving hopefully, and understand the deeper connection between man and woman.If you choose to have many wives, then be prepared for the consequences of that too,which is breaking up your family, tearing apart the children, sometimes siblings love one another sexually because they dont know they are related. So there is no action without an equal and opposite reaction. See, there’s nothing to it or as the cases here maybe, everything to it.
NO act chosen comes without responsibility, unto oneself, unto ones family ,unto one’s community and unto ,if you believe, God. So, we have been warned,I say.
btw I always say, we need to have an open theological discussion and discourse about the clauses and injunctions and commandments therein before we act, as there are consequences. There is no such thing as absolute freedom of choice. There will always be an outcome, whether bad or not so bad or greater good.
As for this author , I do really suggest he goes and read carefully the times he is speaking off. Moorish Kings married Christians wives and had Christian mothers, There was infighting in the Moorish Kingdoms and within the Christians. The time was ripe for another ‘take over” by another group. If it had been the reverse , the Moors would come in and try an conquer Al Andalusia.
Wars have been within mankind since creation, it is in them to “conquer”. To conquer what is the real question, no one bothers to stop and ponder. So it is a need to be great which translates into conquering another human person which is so far from the truth..
Sex is also a natural emotion , it is intrinsic in us and a part of us. If that is so, the way we manifest that need must be with absolute Higher consciousness towards ourselves and another human person. What we choose to do with that intrinsic nature of us, has consequences that can be either very damaging or not. So it is us who need to decide what we are going to do with every natural emotion, every gift we have been given.
Rasa nak pechah perut, geli hati tak terhingga membaca Al’Bean…yours @ 11-47pm…..luchu sangat-sangat….sebab tak tidur satu malam kernana Al’Ketawa…teringat pula Al’Makwe yg comel tu…
Sesudah baca 10 minit, Al’padam lah…tak pe
Nothing wrong with Islam Hassan, just the Muslims that had attained power to rule. One example I was at KLCC mosque to do the Eid prayer when the Imam made an announcement, Muslimah, come down from the upstairs gallery and move to the back, outside. Make way for the Muslimin, they are more important for this Eid prayer.
Is this what Islam is all about?
Then we have the gestapo like actions of JAWI and JAKIM arresting and charging the Muslim woman who is just an employee of a bookstore for selling a banned book and who have no control or authority to determine what book are stocked. Is this Islamic justice as meted out by the Muslim rulers.
Then how about the little girl who wants to go to school and study and the Muslim rulers ordered her to be killed? What happen to Iqra’
Quoitus interrupters ! i have heard the ulamas saying this often on a serious note :
” Tidak sempurna Iman se-seorang itu jika, dalam dia mengkehendaki ilmu Akhirat melalui ilmu Dunia, dan, dalam dia kehendaki Ilmu Dunia, melaluli ilmu Akhirat…”
Jawab nya : SONSANG !
Also, on this Islamic state , Islamic this that and the other. We would fair better if we drop this prefix that we are so obssessed with,stop this obseession with form and satrt acting as humans, start being human and start embracing humanity with Good deeds for we have forgotten that the miracle is that we are a brotherhhood, we are in Essence connected and when we do good in one part of the world it reveberates right throughout and affects all. Conversely , if we do bad.
“Seeing and hearing were not separate in this place where I now was. I could hear the visual beauty of the silvery bodies of those scintillating beings above, and I could see the surging, joyful perfection of what they sang. It seemed that you could not look at or listen to anything in this world without becoming a part of it—without joining with it in some mysterious way. Again, from my present perspective, I would suggest that you couldn’t look at anything in that world at all, for the word “at” itself implies a separation that did not exist there. Everything was distinct, yet everything was also a part of everything else, like the rich and intermingled designs on a Persian carpet … or a butterfly’s wing”
read and ponder this those who seem to think you understand God and heaven,
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/10/07/proof-of-heaven-a-doctor-s-experience-with-the-afterlife.html
Dato Din, if you would grant me permission, may i write a short Comment in a terse language, pertaining to Kathy’s link about about that ” proof of heaven ” out-of=body experience by neuro-surgeon Dr Alexander ( if taboo, please delete ).
Most commentators in that thread disbelieve Dr Alexander’s ” experience” simply because no description, no words, no human language can fully or adequately describe that ” mystical ” thing shown to him.
But many commentators therein, those that believe, state they DO believe because of their Life-long Invocations of the Healing powers of Jesus Christ.
Firstly, i would commend that we read and be fortified by Near-death Experiences by Dr Mervin Morse, first ” witness” to hundreds of such experiences he had examined.
Secondly, i would like to also add that such ” Invocations ” can be performed through the series of Messengers right from Noah, to Abraham, to Moses, to Jesus Christ, right down to Prophet Muhammad ( peace be unto all of them ), for those who believe, IF & when such Mystical experiences do occur….
the above is accounted with much apprehension on my part.
I have come to a conclusion that an Islamic society with the extensiveness of Islamic Law, with the full range of principles and values from the Qur’an and Sunnah would not be in existence here in Malaysia for a long time to come.
The Islam that we would have would be preserved as the minimal Islam of personal piety, personal and family law and perhaps ritual observance, whilst the organization of the whole Muslim society would be under the control of other principles and values, which I can’t help thinking would slowly dislocate the Muslims from knowledge of their own selves and their true Muslim heritage.
Generally, the application of the terms jihadist, extremist, fundamentalist, rapist, plunderist (please add on)… have made it impossible to recognize a diversity of opinion or to have a meaningful debate here or anywhere in the world.
True enough of what Din Merican said “The Islamic State is a mirage and if we pursue this idea, we can only create a divisive nation.” Please permit me to expand that statement a bit Din… An Islamic State and the much feared Islamic Law would forever remain a rhetorical symbolism.
ooops…..Dr Mervin Morse, first-hand witness to….”
ooops…..Dr Mervin Morse, first-hand witness to….”
Saya di-beri ” nasihat ” ( read, long lecture ) oleh saorang Ilmuan Pendita Islam : ” Jangan manusia cuba merampas kerja Tuhan ” – the Christian bretheren know this too well ” the Sin of Trespass is the foremost of all sins ….”, ask CLF.?
Istillah yang sangat penting dalam Kitab Suci ia lah ” Vouchsafed, Vouchsafed……Vouchsafed relating to the devine messages brought by all the Messengers, the Chosen Elect by the Infinite Wisdom of Al’Mighty Creator.
Tidak payah kelo-kesah, itu lah Intisari ” lecture ” (nasihat) dari bloghost Dato Din Merican…sebagai rumusan. Tanya beliau ?
Encik hassan,
You appeared to have relented too easily and I can’t believe that is your true feeling. Remember, the seemingly endless pursuit of achieving a Muslim State (an alleged mirage irrespective) is a jihad of & in itself as one may not arrive at the destination but the journey itself is enlightening through healthy discussions. Truely Islamic States did exist before. They disintegrated because of the faults of the Muslims themselves. Now with westernised & liberal education, many have considered the ideals & idea of an Islamic State are out of vogue and the pursuit of which is likened to be a march backwards to antiquities. Even educated Muslims (who call themselves Muslims but not ones necessarily praying 5 times a day) are caught in the intellectual trap created by the said liberal education without realising the entrapment which has a blinkering effect on them.
In Malaysia, PAS Members, especially those who truely believe in Islamic ideals, are attempting to do the right thing pertaining to the introduction of the Syariah Laws including especially the feared hudud. That is why there is a great discomfort within the PR coalition especially the DAP.
I am western educated but I know it is not about achieving an Islamic State. It is about being in a constant State of Islam ( Submission),.
En hussin,
We have to look it from an another angle. We are a multiracial and multicultural nation. I would have to agree that a secular state would be less burdensome and stressful to all, so to speak. Having said that secularism can be just as fundamentalist, fanatical and intolerant too. But II am not going to allow my own soul to be secularized or westernized. Likewise, I just want to have a little corner in heaven and “pray that we would be included in that chosen group” as mentioned by you in your comment in hakbersuara.wordpress.com.
Please don’t be surprised….
Not only Dr Alexander or neuro-surgeon Dr Mervin Morse, bah kan Mahatma Ghandi, mother Theresa, Albert Einstein, Sir Isaac Newton, Thomas Edison, Graham Bell dll – mereka berkorban ber-puluh tahun dalam kuriungan membut kajian mencari ” ilmu ” yang di-kurnia oleh Illahi, dan mem’manafa’at kan seluruh penghidupan Manusia Sejagat tanpa kira kaul atau kaum – Don’t we beleive that they ( too ) EARN THEIR HEAVENLY BLESSINGS FROM Al’Mighty , And Gain their Heavenly Abode in Paradise, Jannatul Naim ? ? ?
I am sorry but what does “I wont allow my Soul to be secularised or westernized ” even mean?
The Soul is not bound by the physical world.
If there is a single issue that divides nations it is religion – and that was quickly realised by the Founding Fathers over here. Immigrants fleeing religious persecution in Europe reached the Americas and knew that the many denominations i.e. Presbyterians, Catholics, Methodists, Anglicans etc would act to divide rather than unite. Hence the First Amendment to keep religion and state separate. But not before a Judea-Christian tradition has taken roots. Today there are almost 3 million Muslims living peaceably among us some having fled religious persecution in their own home countries victims themselves of their own governments.
Malays have been by tradition exclusively Sunnis and have been spared the blood letting that we see in countries with both Sunnis and Shiites. Turkey being the only Muslim country with a secular constitution and often held up by moderate Muslims as a model to follow, today has its own problems with fringe groups less tolerant with mainstream Islam. What does that say to pin heads like Hasan and Hussin?
In Malaysia self-serving politicians from the party that has ruled the country for over 50 years today work frantically to protect their monopoly over political power through the politics of race and religion. UMNO under the Old Goat in the ’80s aided by Anwar Ibrahim from PAS, has used Article 3 of the country’s constitution to gain a foothold. The Old Goat himself was never anything but a moderate Muslim but his thirst for power and impatience for anything less than that among his Malay Muslim followers, by his actions in the ’80s tapped into an energy source that he has never been able to fully control.
All this talk of an Islamic state is a distraction from the real issues – issues pertaining to democracy and the rule of law. Ideologues and pin heads like Hasan and Hussin may continue to dream on like Dato says.
“Even educated Muslims (who call themselves Muslims but not ones necessarily praying 5 times a day) are caught in the intellectual trap created by the said liberal education without realising the entrapment which has a blinkering effect on them.” — Hussin
You may want to speak for yourself.
What sort of education did you have for yourself that is not funded by taxpayers – that is not liberal? Your condescending attitude shows through like your nakedness when you stand in the doorway clad only in a sarong with the light behind you. If that is your idea of letting things hang out, then readers like Kathy and Didi with feminist views while not necessarily feminists themselves may have something to say to you.
“I just want to have a little corner in heaven and “pray that we would be included in that chosen group” — hasan
Readers should not be surprised to learn that Hasan and Hussin (like Abbott and Costello) both think that they have found a convert to the NEP — in God.
Oh, yes Mr.Bean with reference to yours @9:18pm, Kathy has commented above @5:15 in a firm, crisp and very well-mannered & polished way. Thanks.
“I am sorry but what does “I wont allow my Soul to be secularised or westernized ” even mean?” — Khatijah
Readers would like see more of the Kathijah who made her debut in Dato’s blog, who came swinging with both fists open not too long ago.. Kathy is too subdued and polite. I’m begining to have regrets for having ‘Christened’ her Kathy. Kathijah, where are you?? Come back here!
I know two other Khatijahs. One was a shariah lawyer dealing in divorce matters, a fellow First Collegian married to a Chinese police inspector and the other is this one. Beware of those with names like Khatijah because they end up being feminists with very strong views. Pak Semper may know this Khatijah.
Criticize and ridicule as much as one’s wish. Words do not harm.
Hi Mr Bean, am I too subdued now? LOL. Sorry. I was trying to be civil in my arguments. I reckon that would encourage more to ponder. See what Western education does to one, it makes one civil.
I am not western educated. My teacher who is also home grown, taught me how to read and to pick up only the wisdom and ignore the angst.
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My teachers in 1950s and 1960s were humble human beings who were interested in the development of human character and they encouraged me to read the Classics (Homer, Plato and Aristotle) and literature(Chaucer, Dickens, Shakespeare, Oliver Goldsmith, Somerset Maugham, John Steinbeck, Norman Mailer.,Francis Bacon, Bertrand Russell, and many others). My reading habit started at pre-school, thanks to my late mother. My personal ethos were refined when I was at MU and in the United States. But everything started here in Malaysia (then Malaya)–Din Merican
It may be superfluous, but dengan penuh Ke-Insafan dan perasaan gembira, i must say how brilliantly Mr Bean ( Al’Bean) has convinced all of us – perhaps a few exception who want to play ” God ” – why all things Religious/Religion must be kept Seperate, from our very ” Secular ” Constitution : not a contradiction, nor is it derogatory, but in consonance !
Fortified at the same time by Kathy’s Quotable Quote : ” It is not about an Islamic State, but about being in the State of ” Islam” ( which is ” Submission ” ) – confirmed in the Kitab Suci ” ….there is no Compulsion on Religion ….we are ourselves responsible/accountable for own Destiny & Salvation……No ? ?
Encik Abnizar, your ending phrase “…we are ourselves responsible/accountable for our own Destiny & Salvation…” appeared to be in contradiction to total submission to Allah and gives the impression of some Qadaryah influence. I may be wrong in my perception as you might mean that human beings do have leeway in terms of “ikhtiar” to assist in getting to our final Destiny though the final result will still be determined by Allah alone. That is submission. By the way, nothing of “Creations/Makhluks” should ever play “God” as you rightly pointed out. Alhamdulillah.
Didn’t I not agree and subjugate to your wisdom Din that “The Islamic State is a mirage… ” 28.10.12 @12.35pm
“Generally, the application of the terms jihadist, extremist, fundamentalist, rapist, plunderist (please add on)… ” — Hasan
Plunderist?? OK … that does it. I’m outta here.
“It is in the open and lively exercise of critical Islamic thinking that we make Islam perceptible to ourselves and to others. It is this new language of self-expression Muslims must develop and articulate. ” Thanks hussin,Kathy, Abnizar and of course Dato’ Din. PERIOD.
Betul lah tu, Encik Al’Hussin : ” ….the final or the finality will be determined by Allah alone ” , hence Ayat Laqum di-nuqum Waliyad’ Din….” – No compulsion on Religion, so many Religions in the world, so Who determines ? Surely not man ?
From the very beginning Nabi Ibrahim sujud in ” Submission “. that’s all, Islam is ” submission ”
Pemulaan nya submit atau tidak mahu submit. Dr Alexander tu, dia di-perlihat kan, maka bahru dia submit ” proof of heaven “. Soalan nya : siapa berani meng-kafir kan dia ? ( Infidel ?)….sudah lah tu,selaku hamba buat permulaan , pengakhiran nya sebagai contoh berlaku kpd Dr Alexander, bagai kan kena Lottery ! !
Pls dont worry about where we are educated. Point is we are all in pursuit of knowledge where ever we stumble upon it. Thats more important.The reason why we have come thus far here is because Dato’ has no fear to allow us this discourse unlike those who are governing.
Whats more pertinent and more applicable to this article is this, we must now put down the gauntlet (this misunderstanding of reading the command as establishing an Islamic State) and whilst in Being in the constant state of Islam (surrender) , start concentrating on more important issues such as the Rule of law, fairness , equity and Justice , qualtiy of education, service to mankind ,simultaneously.
Then and only then will both God and our purpose in this world will be served and this saying will hold true,.
“Work for this life as if you are going to live forever ,Work for the next life as if you are going to die tomorrow” Ali Ibn Abu Talib a.s
Bean,Khatijah Ibrahim sister of Sofia Ibrahim, siapa tak kenal. By the way I heard you were a permanent feature at Khatijah’s NYC restaurant.
“Start concentrating on more important issues such as the Rule of law, fairness , equity and Justice , qualtiy of education, service to mankind ,simultaneously.”
That’s polite language, in case you miss it, for being a wimp and a woosie. Being daft is one thing but when somebody talks to his alter ego, it doesn’t get more sick and pathetic than that.
“By the way I heard you were a permanent feature at Khatijah’s NYC restaurant.” — semper fi
She has a restaurant here? Where? I’m still looking for a nyotaimori restaurant, looking for a home for my chopsticks. Everybody is hunkered down in anticipation of Hurricane Sandy which is causing havoc right now.