September 18, 2012
Malaysia’s Gay and Lesbian Blueprint
by Rom Nain@http://www.malaysiakini.com
On Wednesday, with some fanfare, the much-hyped – and certainly ambitious – new education blueprint was unveiled. Quite a bit has so far been written and said about it and there will be opportunity here soon enough to comment on this report.
But, what’s more revealing is that a day later, on Thursday, September 13, the Ministry entrusted with making this plan a reality, and a successful one at that, the Education Ministry, illustrated to many why this plan will more likely end up, as with other previous plans, in the dustbin of history.
It was reported initially by the Chinese print media and later by a couple of news portals that, on Thursday, the Ministry – I’m sure after having spent days, even months, with their panel of ‘experts’ – came up with ‘a list of identifiable gay and lesbian traits’ for ‘schools and parents to prevent the spread of the phenomenon among teenagers’.
Remember, please remember, that this is reportedly coming from our Education Ministry. Yes, the same Ministry entrusted with designing the structure and curriculum for the education of our children for more than ten years of their growing years.
Yes, to belabour the point, the very same ministry that’s going to be at the forefront of implementing this 13-year (2012-2025) new education blueprint that’s supposed to turn our kids into world-beaters.
Unless, of course, going by their latest comments, our kids are gays and lesbians. But if they are – or, have the ‘potential’ to be – and ‘we’ are not sure, thanks to the Ministry, we are now armed with a list that helps to ‘identify’ the symptoms or traits of these two, shall we say, ‘naughty’ groups.
And if you don’t know by now, for gays, their ‘muscular bodies’, ‘v-neck and sleeveless clothes’, ‘tight and light-coloured clothing’, ‘large handbags’ are apparently clear, tell-tale signs.
And lesbians, apparently are ‘attracted to women, like to eat, sleep, hang out in the company of other women and have no affection for men’.
Of course it’s easy enough to rubbish all this stupidity, as many have on the net, using social media.But I’m quite certain just rubbishing isn’t enough because the stupidity is so deeply entrenched and evidently widespread among these people currently holding the reins of authority, further aggravated by the sheer bigotry of these people.
Indeed, by now, reports of this latest caper by the ministry have spread far and wide with, among others, Reuters, commenting on, if not ridiculing, it.
The way the news has spread and the comments, criticisms and wisecracks that it has generated is reminiscent of the time in January 2010 when Rais Yatim made those rather inane comments about Facebook and Twitter, and the storm of objections and insults that followed, especially on Twitter.
Despite all that, however, almost three years on, Rais is still a Minister, presumably unrepentant, and still coming up with more such comments.
Refusing to be accountable
The point is, despite valid and widespread criticisms and counter-arguments, oftentimes they are like water off a duck’s back and these buffoons just carry on, refusing to be accountable for their words and deeds.
Indeed, there is no shame, no sense of honour and integrity.These latest assertions are devoid of any scientific or medical basis, (mis)informed by the guidelines of two dodgy-sounding outfits, Yayasan Guru Malaysia Bhd and Putrajaya Consultative Council of Parents and Teachers Associations.
And appallingly and shamefully, coming as they do from the Ministry, they indicate that very little research and clear thinking is taking place in this ministry.
A Ministry that really should be right up there developing and promoting education policies and strategies that will help us all to truly understand and appreciate each other.
But instead is spinning hatred against fellow human beings.Some months 
ago, in response to the homophobic attacks against Seksualiti Merdeka, I wrote a commentary in the East Malaysian Borneo Post (Nov 6, 2011). In the light of this latest attack – and the possible fearful impact this ministry ‘list’ may have on our children, I would like to repeat a few lines here.
‘Suddenly, all manner of accusations have been hurled at this small community, by politicians, religious groups and, not surprisingly, right-wing fascists, like the members of Perkasa.
‘All evidently united by their homophobia, their unyielding belief that behaviour that is non-heterosexual is not only ‘deviant’ but also abhorrent and should be condemned.
‘This larger majority fails – or worse, refuses – to understand that the members of this community often face social, emotional, legal and even political problems because of their gender identity and sexual orientation, labelled by the hardliners as “deviant”.
‘By acting in this high-handed manner, the majority refuses to recognise the very real possibility that it is their very actions that lead to the isolation, alienation and despair faced by this marginalised community of Malaysian brothers and sisters.
‘They are so marginalised and relatively minute in numbers that I find it inconceivable that they should pose any danger or threat to the wider Malaysian public.
‘All this is, thus, sad and doesn’t say much about us as a people. We boast about being a caring society, as stipulated in the challenges of Wawasan 2020, yet do not wish to know about this small community, let alone engage with them.’
Are these MU Stars in V-neck Jerseys Gay?
Imagine, then, if you will, children being bullied and harassed in school by other children, their teachers and other ‘officials’ simply because moronic ‘lists’ are made available to these menurut perintah individuals ‘identifying’ these children as having particular ‘symptoms’.
Think of the immeasurable harm, physical and, more so, mental, that all this stupid, misinformed profiling is going to cause our kids.Yes, our kids.
Education is supposed to liberate our minds and to empower us, to enable us to make improvements to the societies, indeed the whole world, that we live in.
This latest shameful exercise by the Ministry has absolutely nothing to do with education. It has the very real potential to cultivate more misunderstanding, more confusion, more hatred.
For all that, for all its sheer stupidity, yes, it should be ridiculed, it should be parodied. But more than that, for the immense harm it will cause to our kids and, indeed, to all of us, this move, these ‘lists’, should be condemned.
We have gone over the top this time around and have become the butt of jokes around the world. Nothing better to do. Bodoh punya orang.
In the colonial days the Commonwealth Office used this to fill posts in the jungles of their colonies. May be we are finding it difficult to post teachers to rural schools.
Tok Cik,
You have stop wearing the V-neck Liverpool jersey and make sure you don’t carry a big handbag to the office. You will be classified as a gay and real gays will go after you. Gee, I am glad that those geniuses in the Ministry of Education did not include the golf bag as an indicator of homosexuality. Otherwise those golfers in the Ministry will qualify as laksamanas belakang! Hilarious and ridiculous. Yes, geranimo, they have nothing better to do.–Din Merican
Sexual orientation profiling only goes so far as outward appearance and dressing. Often times the signs are not there. Physical attributes are often misleading. Guess these MoE people are experts to be able to determine just by the fashion and apparel worn by Malaysians to determine their sexual orientation. This I must see in the numbers of false arrest and accusation.
Thank god I don’t have a T-shirt factory making V necks or else I will sue their pants off ( Govt ) I meant, I know pants off sounds kinky & gay,well, Gay was such a wonderful word , to be Merry & Gay,God what ever happened to us.
banana,lolipop,icecream etc should be ” haram” for this ” boleh land” he ! he! he!
Using the guidelines to profile me, my wife just found out, after 23 years of marriage, I am a lesbian…..
1. I like women more than men;
2. I like to hang around women;
3. I like to eat;
4. I like to sleep a lot;
5. I have a strong dislike for men…
Stupid is what stupid does….
“Lesbians like to sleep, eat and hang around with other women.”
Didn’t know i was affected with the lesbianism symptoms. Apparently most heterosexual women didn’t know about this either.
The gay men I’ve seen were neither muscular nor were they wearing bright colored clothings or v-necks. This was in San Francisco.
is this some kind of joke? or is today the first of April?
these buggers are wasting taxpayers money for their cheap thrills.
On the second thought, these guys and gals in MOE are doing a fine job for us,dummies. They are trying to be helpful to both parents and students and members of the Malaysian public. Wives can now identify whether their husbands are gays or not. Mrs Bean can know Bean’s profile.Even the Prime Minister will be guided on the appropriate dress code to avoid being stereotyped.
That’s public service isn’t it? If it is, why are we getting uptight over this? In stead, we should be grateful (terima kasih) to these geniuses for the trouble they have taken to make life less complicated.
You don’t have to think now. Just use their blueprint. And prompto, you already know someone’s sexual orientation without asking them the embarrassing Q. Only in Malaysia where we can come up with such innovative ideas. Syabas.–Din Merican
According to MoE guidelines all Malay men are gays, they wear skirts (sarongs) and always horny as they walk around in Pajamas (Baju Melayu) just like Hugh Hefner. Another indicator being gay is the loud colors of their (pajamas)
Then there’s the perverts who wear cutaway bras (white skull caps) on their heads.
Another fabricating and misleading write by stupid Ron. Probably has been living in land of gays and driven by hatred of bn.
First in all the initial report by thr Chinese daily and untrustworthy malaysiakini none say it’s issued by the ministry. It was issued by parents associations. The ministry endorsed the seminar on parenting on lgbt.
I don’t have access to the full guidelines, but I will admit the Symptoms highlighted by the two parenting associations are highly arguable and the v necks seems ridiculous. But I will say this. I recommend their effort though the selective publication of their guidelines seemed to make them way off.
This is the problem we have worldwide. Making a stand against lgbt. I am stating upfront that I am against lgbt. This I believe is a value of our society. To me it’s a religious value too and we should not be ashamed to say it. The advent of Internet is changing our value but we must be discerning enough to reject this.
Despite this I don’t believe these lgbt group should be prosecuted/incarcerated. I know a number and all of them are kind and nice. But don’t push us to accept lgbt rights as a dominant right. I have no doubt in the future we will see more acceptance of same sex show of public affection like kissing if not already. Similarly with same sex marriage etc. And as a parents it’s a concerned and we need to tackle this.
From Islamic parenting perspective we need to do more than mere exhortation of verses. A rethink on the approach to tackle this issue is needed.
I support these seminars as commendable. Its parenting on lgbt which we should explore deeper. Theyre trying to identify how and most likely how to handle them. To me these associations should seek the help of ministry and experts to develop a more credible guidelines (I am prejudging based on skewered reports.) it’s not easy to come up with symptoms. I myself have difficulty of identifying one. But the thrust of the matter of the seminar must be supported and continued. And the approach of parenting must include those corpus of child psychology which religious approach tends to ignore.
So Ron as usual is writing not about the issue but to express the hate of bn. He missed the context out of hatred. There is a major issue again about our value which are being challenged all the time. We should take a right stand on supporting the courses on parenting for lgbt. But we must demand a credible approach of parenting to tackle this. The problem we all here have especially Ron is that we don’t even have access to the guidelines. I give the parents associations the benefit of doubt that they are sincere. They’ve done a number of these quietly not for publicity. What I see is now is hatred reporting/writing by some again for political purposes.
____________
Confirm that Ellese is a pro-BN blogger. This commentary makes it plainly obvious. No problem with that since UMNO-BN badly needs help from him and other sympathisers. The Gays and Lesbians Blueprint is a big cock-up by bureaucrats. Expect more to come.–Din Merican
They forgot to include pink lips that seem to be slobbering at the sight of unsinkable subs.
Din, Ellese is right. The writer hasn’t done enough efforts to view the matter as originated from the MOE, but rather a stand of the parent’s association, thus to ridicule MOE unnecessarily seems the obvious choice from this writer with political motives perhaps…
“The Gays and Lesbians Blueprint is a big cock-up by bureaucrats.” Dato.
Absolutely. Nowadays they have blueprints for everything. None of which will or can be fulfilled. Such reductionist, narrow, misguided and refutable guidelines seem to me a desperate ploy to show that these organizations, in collusion with their similarly blinkered patrons, remain relevant. It probably gives them some form of erotic stimulation. All this in the name of psycho-sociological profiling and to show that they too, are ‘morally upright’ and virtuous when it comes to gender bias. They’ve been obviously trained as BTN’ed cadres, with visionary abilities and brain-power of a mole rat.
I’d rather they address the simple issue of why PTAs exist in the first place, and the deteriorating quality of our teaching profession.
Gays and Lesbians are the most decent lot living among our society. Due to their condition they hardly mixed around only among themselves. There are not associated to any criminal activities. They don’t fall under any religious body thus they don’t propagate or evangelise. Why disturb them and their family?
This blueprint bring hardship not only to them but their entire family member. Everyone in the family will be marked and tracked. They will be like criminal serving their probations or suspend sentence.
Is there any rules or laws against infringing of one private life? The Malaysia government seem to be nosing and messing everyone private life except themselves. Wonder what will happen if one of their love one is G or L. By then there may be another blueprint to supersede this present one. Malaysia Boleh..
Ellese may be right on one point but he has a cocked up view (of the world) and on a certain section of the population in malaysia. a typical apologist for BN this Robert Goh guy. you cannot stick your head in the sand like an ostrich and refuse to accept the fact that there are LGBTs. he doesn’t believe that they should be prosecuted and incarcerated; does it mean he wants them eleiminated.
Ellese, I hope you understand the following documentary:
let nature be nature, don’t twiddle with it.
if you have understood the above docu then you should have realized that you are just repeating what the West and the USAmericans did hundred years ago. they have learnt a lesson.
it has nothing to do with religion but with the human selfishness.
My goodness dato. Why must everything be decided whether you’re pr or bn supporter. Right or wrong doesn’t depend on who you support. It’s the action that determines value. If you have other facts please show. I’ve read all the reports and the guidlines are issued by the parents association. Fuad supported the move but it’s immaterial to me. It’s the effort by the parents association that is commendable. To stigmatize this stand as pro bn is simply shallow.
Ron in the past likes to write unrelated maters to “sedap hati” the partisans. It’s deceitful. I will point out as it should be. It matters not whether many like me or not. As I wrote in my blog I will not bow to the tyrant of the majority. A right is a right and it does not depend on who says or does it.
Action determines value?
I thought intent determines value. That’s why most people look at Value added tax before they purchase anything. If you disagree with something, like say the insidious bending of sexual orientation rules, is it not better to Educate the children on simple things like birds and the bees and where organs of procreation thereof should ‘rightly’ be enplaced?
Even before the basics, these flurs have stuck on ridiculous labels and caused misapprehension. Misanthropism and Malbranding.
Why can’t we decide our own sexual preference.? Be it gay, lesbian or whatever, as long as u do good and never harm others, u are better of than the monster in suits and some religious figures who only think of God as a tool to amass wealth.
I will have to go with Ellese on the matter of responsibility to your profession as journalists. With one caveat. What’s wrong with partisan views of anything?
Campuses all over the world some 80% are liberal, the media tends to be anti-establishment and liberal. In a third world country like Malaysia not having known press freedom, after some five decades of paying lip service to the idea of a free press, and toying with the idea of press freedom, the internet has meant a sudden awakening an unshackling of the chains if you will, that bind the feet of these journalists – mostly self styled. The joyful exuberance that one sees is a mirror image of the years of pent up emotions being suddenly released. Today you don’t need training in journalism nor the paraphenalia of a journalist (a name tag and a plastic pass, a band around your neck and a constipated face) to qualify as journalist. Today to be a journalist all you need is an old computer and a keyboard.
Next to lawyers are journalists. They follow a close second and third after the oldest profession when it comes to selling themselves for a price.
Warning that writers take heed of archaic concepts like subjudice and in the same breath rallying to press freedom and free speech and democracy is to throw cold water on the heads of civil society advocates and the need for transparency. Go easy on that subjudice thing because you are playing into the hands of those who walk the corridors of power.
“Din, Ellese is right. The writer hasn’t done enough efforts to view the matter as originated from the MOE, but rather a stand of the parent’s association, thus to ridicule MOE unnecessarily seems the obvious choice from this writer with political motives perhaps…” robert goh
Unless you haven’t noticed, it is called freedom of speech – yours and the writer’s.
Dear Bean and all,
People can be partisan and that is fine with me. But dont be a blind follower where an act is right or wrong depends on who you support.
There are many instances which is appalling to me. For example the deficit budget. Both pr and bn proposed and adopted this. But both say the other will bankcrupt our nation but theirs will not. Similarly with the billion dollar handout. Now these partisanships are pure ridiculous. At the end no party benefit coz both still pursue deficit spending and huge handout. I’ve brought the attention we must at least get commitment whether that the party is for surplus budget and limits on hands out. But these do not fit any of bn or pr outlook and they start name calling.
We can be partisan but within reason. We must know what we want and not follow blindly. My most respected commentator who push me to the limit is a pro pr. His name is rhan or hua yong. I respect him and his partisanship and would not change him a bit. We have discourse to exchange views. And I learn from it. That I gives me great satisfaction. But in most omstances a huge majority supports position for no apparent reason save for partisanship. And when we give contrarion views we suddenly become wrong.
The main cause of this ridiculous partisanship is our freedom to choose what we want to read. Inaccurate prejudiced writes perpetuate further prejudices. And the advent of Internet allows us to deepen the inaccuracies just like this write above. Our sense of fairness suddenly becomes skewed.
This is where we need the balanced objective media. We need like bbc to uk and CNN, NBC etc to US where there’s a sense of a fair objective media to rely. There are certain things we must stand together and have common ground. So a debate like the budget would at least make parties to commit to a surplus budget.
( please note I have no issue with the deficit budget. See my stand but push people to make a reasoned stand at least)
Dear CL,
The parents association were concerned about it and even issued the guidelines. Theyre educating people and assist other parents in handling the issue. Isn’t this the right thing? Why are you objecting.
Dear bean,
On issue of subjudice we can adopt standards already practiced. They are to report accurately fairly and without malice. The other allowance is the principle in contemporaneous reporting.
There’s a balance we need to strive in reporting court cases. But definitely we cannot accept distortion of news/ truth.
Dear Ellese,
The point that many have made and i’m reiterating, is that the education system in this country must be so bad that the PTAs and teachers have nothing more to do than to come up with this insane ‘guideline’. They obviously have no clue on what they’re talking about, because their profiling is akin to a hate crime. I don’t want to belabor you on what Human Gender Studies currently show, but take it from me – it’s not what these idiots make it out to be. Driving hatred and disgust to score Brownie points after the accusations between politicians is certainly seen as a subliminal advertisement. Comprendo?
If proper basic sex education is abhorrent in the school curricula, this smacks on downright hypocrisy.
”The main cause of this ridiculous partisanship is our freedom to choose what we want to read” – Ellese
”freedom causes partiality”, yes I’m learning too.
you sound as if all the kids are going gay/lez/trans and the parents association is trying to save them?
I like this PTA singer:
Ellesse
Regardsless of who created the guidelines, most people here object to the guidelines because it is faulty to begin with. You can’t judge a person sexual orientation by the way the person dresses. This only applies to transgender because the man may be trapped in a womans body but for gays and lesbian? They need to do a better job.
If based on the style of dressing see my earlier comment.
“The main cause of this ridiculous partisanship is our freedom to choose what we want to read.”
I suppose you want to decide what we all should read so we won’t be partisan? CNN isn’t really that objective. It has its biases. So does NBC.
See any V Neck T Shirts here?
Since this blueprint is only at the initial stage report and opened to further public suggestion as mentioned by Muhyiddin, let’s give ours to MOE on how to improve and what’s best for the blueprint. I believe that would be much better, rather than lamenting without purpose. At least we’re contributing for the future generation, and not thinking with a jaundice mind, though you may think otherwise.
“Both pr and bn proposed and adopted this. But both say the other will bankrupt our nation but theirs will not.” — Ellese
That’s not partisanship. That’s Hussin and Bendover Singh giving head to each other.
To understand what partisanship does to the country, look no further than our very own Parliament. Voting has always been along party lines – not issues. Are constituents who send these jokers to the country’s highest law making body supposed to think that their representatives share the same position on all the issues? What happened to freedom of speech?
Orang malaya,
On symptoms please read my earlier reply. We may not be that far apart.
The major difference is that I dont take the write as the truth. If you want to assess a proper write and how writers write unfairly to skew a view please see US SPJ standards which I alluded earlier. Thus I searched the actual guideline before judging but it has not been fruitful.
Second, I am against lgbt becoming an acceptable norm in our country. I appreciate the efforts of the parents association to educate masses and parents to uphold such values. (please note that im not condoning their content as its not available) You may have different value and thus unable to appreciate the effort.
Norm?
It’s a fact that the majority can always be relied upon to exert, with vigor, their God given right to be stupid. Paraphrased from Dean Koontz.
As for questions as to the insidious biology and environment that conspire to create heterosexuals (the majority by a factor of some 95%), homosexuals and transsexuals, we would have to ask God.
Now what would these ‘normal’ clowns say about asexuals or abstainers? They are Holey, in the head. Any further discussion on this matter, kindly refer His Holiness, Jabba the Hutt.
Elesse
You now show that you are intolerant by saying “I am against lgbt becoming an acceptable norm in the country”
There are 4 different groups in lgbt, 2 groups are affected by their sexual orientation and the other groups are born with certain defects in their genes. Thus you cannot lump all the groups together and say “against becoming an acceptable norm in the country” Instead you should reach out to the groups affected by their sexual orientation and try to understand why they adopt that lifestyles.
On the transgender group who are born with defects, try to appreciate their position, they didn’t ask to be born that way. Imagine if your son or daughter born as a transgender, would you treat him/her like a leper? We are all God’s creation and we need to learn to live with his creation with love, warts and all.
You’ve advocated fair reporting and even flirt around with subjudice in your championing fair reporting and being non partisan, Yet you exhibit that you are partisan and bias against lgbt. You brush lgbt as freaks of nature. Instead of finding ways and means in dealing with the issue differently for the different groups in the lgbt.
Rest assured the numbers of lgbt will grow in Malaysia as in the rest of the world. You don’t have to condone their lifestyle but you just have to learn how to deal with them with compassion and understanding.
Ellesse doesn’t want LGBT to be a norm in this country. But Malays have no problem taking on “cik pon” as for their children’s wedding make-up artist or the fact that the top make-up artist in this country is a “lembut”. We pick and choose how we want to apply Islamic law. Just like how Muslims are not allowed to sell alcohol but we let them anyhow.
Seriously. You folks have no problem seeing those guys who hang out around town, dressed more like women, swaggers and have the faces of men?
Jimmy, why do they dress that way? Have you asked them? Do you know why and do you have an answer other than they chose to dress that way. They are women trapped in the body of a man. May I suggest you conduct interviews with them, listen to their side of the story. Granted some of them are cross dressers and up to no good.
Most of them are talented and artistic. They make better fashion designers than the ladies. Like Didi says, many are sought after Mak Andam and wedding planner par excellence. They command million ringgit fees for their services. They are great make up artist and hair dressers. Go to Sungai Wang and see how many work in the boutiques and see whose their regular clientele.
CL
I’ve thought about your write. My initial thoughts were that youre paying lip service to hatred Crime/profiling argument since youve never raised the issue on our politics of hatred which is so pervasive.
I don’t think the guidelines encourage hatred. From what I read it’s about trying to assist parents and teachers to handle lgbt. Problem is I can’t get hold of the full guidelines to give a fair assessment. But so do you.
But parenting is an issue dear to me and would like to take you through. ohmae was right that with the advent of Internet one of the main consequence was the convergence of values in particular the dominant western values. I see acceptance of non traditional values creeping ceasely without us realizing. I see nephews as small as 7/8 talking about gay and essentially knows what it means. They get exposure everywhere from Internet social media and tvs. These media push the idea that it’s an acceptable norm. Even if you see glee they promote that it’s alright to be gay.
I can’t accept this and abhor this protrusion that lgbt is an acceptable norms. I have friends who are gay and transsexual(pondan) and I’m fine with befriending them. I understand their background. But They know it’s not an acceptable norm and don’t proudly protrude their values to me and my family. I treat them like any other friends. On a personal basis I can tolerate and don’t lecture them. But if they start to justify their lifestyle and demand it’s an accepted norm I will give my no holds barred view.
I am exasperated that we are not able to articulate a stand that we are not going to accept lgbt as an acceptable norm. To me we need to inculcate in our children that this is not an acceptable norm and a no no. But we should not persecute the lgbt and make our children understand that some were there due to family circumstances. We need compassion and understanding to tackle this issue.
This is where we depart. Politicians see this as Anwar issue and thus this is where many also see this as political. But there are many non political friends of mine like academicians have raised their concern. As for me the abhorrent and unabashed gay glee series for children says we’ve gone too far.
That’s why I ask what’s your value. Do you believe the lgbt should be an acceptable norm? Do you think lgbt lifestyle is right or wrong?
The answer above differentiate us. To me I’m appreciative of the effort parents association provided that if the effort is sincere.
_____________
Empathy is the missing word here. Are the authorities suggesting that lgbts should be burnt at the stakes like witches in the Middle Ages?–Din Merican
Orang Malaya,
If your value is for lgbt so be it. My value says its wrong. I have said I’ve tolerated them and treat them similarly. But I will strongly react if one pushes lgbt to be an acceptable norms.
Values are things which we hold to. You argue as you like. But you will not change my value. It’s a belief system and for me it’s grounded by religious values.
Before I dabble further in these, you state your values so that you don’t change goal post I arguing with me. State to us whether lgbt is right or wrong to you? Are you ok for it to be an acceptable norm?
The crux of values are always parenting values. You answer me whether you are alright for your children to be gay and marry another gay? Similarly with lesbians.
It’s a no for me. State your stand. And we see how intolerant you and I are.
Didi,
Another distorted argument. There are many many more malays out there against this but you failed to highlight.
Don’t go arguing without a stand. Do you think lgbt is right or wrong? Do you think it should be an acceptable norm in our country?
The Cik pon you quoted are not acceptable norms and frowned upon as a societal value. Malays don’t want their children to be Cik pon. Don’t mistake tolerance in dealing with them as an acceptable norms and values among Muslims/ Malays. State your position.
Mr bean,
I think you’re funny.:-)
Ellesse
I accept lgbt as God’s creation, the God that is all powerful all knowing and all merciful. These people have a right to exist just like you and me.
It is how we deal with lgbt as a caring society or as a judgemental society that shuns anything that is not the norm as per our own perception.
Just like drinking and smoking, do you shun the smokers and drinkers or do you establish certain rules and regulations. Smokers and drinkers are not the norm mind you.
Again back to the two groups, which you have chosen to lump into one. That is unfair. One group practice sexual orientation by choice while the second is born with it and have no choice. How can you deal with these two groups with one set rule.
Where is the caring society that we laud Malaysians to be? We should not discriminate based on gender, age, sexual orientation, race color or religious beliefs. Who are we to judge? Are we superior to them? Only God knows.
There you have my stand. We need to learn to live with lbgt. They are and will be part of the Malaysian population. Need any more clarification? Man can be the most cruel of animals when it comes to treating another human being.
Orang Malaya,
Then we depart in value. Then it is no wonder you took that approach. My value system is in opposite. I believe in traditional value system. Family must require husband male and female wife. Our kids must grow up in that environment. Family union between men inter se as well as women is totally abhorrent. I believe our children must know that lgbt is not an acceptable value. It should not be the norm. This is the societal value we hold and should hold.
However in dealing with lgbt we need to show compassion and toleration. They must know where our societal value is and not push it. We should not persecute them but instead help if we can or at worse tolerate them as much as we can. My boundary is when they want to accept that lgbt is an acceptable societal norm and values.
I still believe this is the Malaysian societal value without a shadow of doubt. Its not mere prejudices and ignorance as you try to potray. It’s still is currently the western societal value though they seemed to be changing in bits and pieces. I will articulate this view wherever I can like here. You, Didi, CL etc may believe in gay rights and not in male female family union, but I will tell you upfront I am totally against it and will object even the tiny notion of making it acceptable. If you pour scorn against those with these values, I will do the same. If you condemn them I too will do the same. This is a value I cherish and will defend.
Ellese,
You’re a late bloomer. Hussin has been giving head to Bendover Singh ever since Dato started his blog some years ago. And they are still at it.Talk about ups and downs.
Ah.., orang malaya. You’ve hit the nail on the head!
Firstly, it’s about the Nature vs Nurture debate. The problem is that these clowns want to use Nurture to do away with Nature in many cases and ostracize without redemption.
Secondly, like Dato says, they synthesize ‘guidelines’ an Inquisition. It’s just like the ‘Tak Mahu’ anti-smoking campaign some time ago. Unfortunately, the target of their ire are defenseless children, who behave or dress different. Make no mistake, children being ‘innocents’ are the easiest and malleable to brainwash. They are also the most cruel and meanest when it comes to torturing others.
Thirdly, instead of a blanket idiotic ‘profiling’, it would be much better that the teachers (who are of dubious quality nowadays) identify those kids that have ‘identifiable traits’ and seek professional counselling for them – without kicking up a fuss. It is extremely damaging for young minds to be labeled and denigrated. The child suicide rates will sky-rocket. Of course, it remains the duty of MoE to vet pedophiles and other monsters from the teaching profession.
I would rather they teach the kids, about sexual predators and simple things like bottom pinching is due to uncontrollable nature of sex maniacs. It is not about ‘Western or Liberal’ views. It’s about the place of holistic Pedagogy in a broken world.
“If you pour scorn against those with these values, I will do the same. If you condemn them I too will do the same.” Ellesse
Very strong words. Obviously you are getting off unnecessarily. All I’m saying is we should treat lgbtt fairly as any human being. I never said anything about pouring scorn against those that oppose these groups. I’m just surprised at your reaction against those that do not subscribe to your belief.
On another closely related Malaysian societal value that you so strongly cherish, is rape, statutory rape, incest and throwing away unwanted babies acceptable as I read of numerous cases in the papers. How come the PTA’s or MoE didn’t develop guidelines on how to spot underage pregnancy and underage sex activities? Are these becoming an acceptable societal norm?
Orang malaya,
Don’t con me. I said if you do that I’ll react the same. The proposition is not far off here. Look at this stupid article by Ron. He is putting disdain and scorn on the MOE and PTAs efforts and extrapolated beyond the actual facts to rile up contempt and disdain. It’s issued by PTAs but then unfairly and unrelatedly connect it to education blueprint. The whole intention and actual effort of PTAs are not highlighted. The purpose is again to deepen hatred. Then please see people’s reaction.
People do these. To box up against people who don’t believe in lgbt. Then you look at the overseas report on this as if we must accept this lgbt rights as an acceptable norm.
I’m telling you CL Didi etc again, your values are in opposite to most Malaysians. If you your family wants to practice Gay lesbian culture most of us can tolerate but don’t push us to accept them as an acceptable norm or social value. You can go on your shallow argument on man vs nurture and your own flawed conception of god creation. We have our own moral bearing.
Don’t mock me on incest statutory rape and throwing babies as acceptable culture. This is pure stupid diversion argument. We’ve never ever accepted those values. Actions by the few and rejected by the rest cannot by any stretch of imagination be said to be our values. Don’t use this false stupid argument against me and then pretend that you’re a nice guy and dont put scorn in my argument. You just did.
CL
I think youre quite imaginative and perhaps should share with us how you derive to the points you’ve raised.
How is this guideline similar to the inquisition. Which part of the guidelines that ask people to react similarly like the inquisition? Can you allude us that after idenfying the much condemned symptoms, what did the guidelines advise the parents and teachers do?
Ellesse,
I see no point in discussing lbgt further with you as you’ve become very personal and aggresive. On the other social issues I was just asking what is your take on them. Instead you start a diatribe on how I should lead my life and trying to con you. Guess we are not getting anywhere and should end this discussion here. Good luck on you and your Malaysian sociatel norm.
Inquisition? It’s wholesale murder of a majority of innocents and a minuscule number of not-so-innocents. It’s indiscriminate, due to bigotry, bias and sheer ignorance. First step is to label, with ‘guidelines’ and blueprints.
In the past, it was carried out several times by the Office of Doctrine and Faith, the Vatican. In the present, it’s imitated by all those who think they know (the ‘majority’), but don’t. Ignorami have the tendency to impose their “Will’ and claim it in the name of Family Values (jargon derived from tele-evangelist, USofA) or worse – God Himself! Nowadays, Inquisitions are carried out purely using psychological odium/torment. Physical violence is optional, except in Wazirstan and Taliban-land.
‘Family values’ is as variable as political expediency. It depends on availability of ‘funds’. Ask the poverty stricken and marginalized. Even certain rich Arabs, who like the extinct Spartan Hoplites, made certain abhorrent leisure activities, a cultural ‘norm’.
Comprendo?
CL,
You still fail to answer:
How is this guideline similar to the inquisition. Which part of the guidelines that ask people to react similarly like the inquisition? Can you allude us that after idenfying the much condemned symptoms, what did the guidelines advise the parents and teachers do?
Your answer thus far is very funny. Just a minor similarity then it’s akin to inquisitions. By your definition I can also say the push and propaganda by pro lgbt are like inquisition. Argument by orang malaya (which you so much support) that it’s the gods conception of human that we must accept lgbt is like inquisition as well. If we don’t believe were against human rights. Like its a heresy. These are indiscriminate ignorant allegation of others culture and religion. And since some argue like that I can fairly conclude the whole movement on lgbt are like inquisitions.
Come on CL, give concrete comparison. Did the guidelines ask for death by burning incarceration or torture? Did it ask for inquisitorial tribunals on lgbt to punish the kids or even demand for a new canon of law against lgbt students. Or did the PTAs asked for students to be counselled only? ( funny thing is that if they are to be counseled you’re ok).
So don’t give this shallow comparison. The current catholic church are still against gay and spread this conviction around. Are they still carrying out inquisition? According to you they would. This is news to the world.
So I repeat again my questions above. Give a decent answer. Comprende?
Orang Malaya,
Next time don’t write personal position which I’ve never said. You wrote: “On another closely related Malaysian societal value that you so strongly cherish, is rape, statutory rape, incest and throwing away unwanted babies acceptable as I read of numerous cases in the papers.”
You personally accuse me of cherishing the heinous crimes which I’ve never said before. You sinisterly extrapolated my statement and stand? I wrote before nicely that we should agree to disagree. But you insisted on unjustifiably mocking things and below the belt which I’ve not said. So I write in kind. I protect my integrity. If you withdraw I ever condone that then we can discuss with mutual respect.
To me since our values differ we can’t go in between. I cannot whatever you say support lgbt rights and will support the PTAs coz I share the same concern. Granted that certain symptoms which I too find, as unacceptable, if they’re sincere and based on proper study and consultation I think they deserve commendation. You’re the opposite. I can live quietly with it but when you or like this writer trying to thumb down the PTAs effort I will respond.
So? agree to disagree or push further?
Let’s put it in another way. Let’s say the Ministry gives out a a guideline on symptoms of chicken pox. Dots on the face. Fever. Tiredness.
Is this guideline suppose to do harm, or to detect risks and to allow steps to prevent it from spreading, before causing an epidemic? Tell me, didn’t these steps done years ago actually help detect and prevent chicken pox? Why not use the same method to on a different issue? Think about it. If you still think the guideline produced is to cause more harm than prevention, I think you are another distorted media voice.
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