September 8, 2012
And we call this Merdeka
by Ron Naim(09-06-12)@http://www.malaysiakini.com
At the rate this regime is going about dealing with its citizens, it could quite easily turn out to be the most despised one for a long, long time. There’s just no finesse, no class, in the way it handles things.
Granted, it is arguably an extension of previous regimes, but, at least with the one led for a long time by that doctor, there was no pretence at being a democracy.
With this Najib Abdul Razak pack, there’s constant bleating, especially by its media apparatchiks, about rakyat didahulukan (people first) and the accompanying mantra of ‘transparency’, ‘transformation’ and, of course, ‘reform’.
But, as we have seen, time and time again the regime does the exact opposite, riding roughshod over the requests of its citizens, bludgeoning many aside in a desperate attempt to cling on to power without integrity, without dignity.
The recent eve of Merdeka ‘celebrations’, such that it was, and the ongoing aftermath, provide us with a clear illustration of this.
Right from the get-go, it was quite clear that the regime was going to (ab)use the occasion. Government resources were utilised for endless idiotic logos, tired slogans and seemingly copycat songs that for many did not celebrate the spirit of Merdeka but merely served up crass propaganda for the BN regime.
Janji Demokrasi–A People Movement
Propaganda that was being paid for from public funds. And when Malaysian 
civil society opted to organise its own celebrations – which essentially is what Janji Demokrasi was about, an invitation to celebrate Malaya’s independence while reminding the regime of its responsibilities – sadly and ironically, it was not provided that independence.
What, indeed, is the point of ‘enjoying’ 55 years of independence and apparent freedom if the rakyat is not allowed to freely gather and celebrate it? Unless, of course, they ‘apply for permission’ first to hold such a ‘freedom’ gathering or go along with the ‘officially-sanctioned’ celebrations.
Surely there’s a major contradiction there somewhere? A contradiction which I’m sure the so-called liberals in the regime, like Saifuddin Abdullah, Gan Ping Sieu and Khairy Jamaluddin are well aware of.
But, evidently, after being ‘advised’ about the need and wisdom of the amendments to the Evidence Act, this trio, and their less valiant colleagues in the BN corner, appear to have very little to say. The phrase, ‘cat got your tongue’ comes to mind.
Be that as it may, since that eve-of-independence celebration on the evening of August 30, last Thursday, the way that the mainstream media has been harping on about a couple of incidents, you would think that all hell had broken loose and that an attempted revolution had taken place.
If ever there was a clear case of overreaction, it was the official and media responses to Janji Demokrasi.
Catalogue of Complaints
Let’s look at the catalogue of complaints, the list of transgressions. Yes, indeed, let’s see what the fuss is about. Top of the list so far has been the silly mooning of photographs of the Prime Minister, his wife, and a couple of others by an exuberant young man. Sure, it was rude. Granted, it was in very poor taste. But did he deserve being expelled from his college for this act of, at worst, tomfoolery?
It is reported that the Higher Education Minister (no less) said that the decision was “appropriate since the action by the individual had tarnished the good name of the institute of higher learning”. But, really, how serious was his indiscretion, as compared to the real crime of the rapist Noor Afizal Azizan who was recently released because, according to the judge, among other things, he has a ‘bright future’ ahead of him?
For heaven’s sake, the lad mooned a few photographs; he didn’t exactly attempt to physically sit on their faces.Talk about getting our bearings, our priorities, all wrong.
Next was what seemed like an immediate nationwide hunt for a number of individuals allegedly caught on camera stomping on, yet again, the poor Prime Minister’s photo – and, I’m told, his beloved wife’s as well.
A young girl (right) all the way in Johor was then arrested, cuffed like a common 
criminal, and driven all the way to KL to be charged, reportedly under the Sedition Act.
It would serve us well to remember that on July 11 this year, the Prime Minister had announced the repeal of the Sedition Act, to be replaced (but, of course) with the orchestra-sounding National Harmony Act.
Perhaps some people weren’t listening to the Prime Minister’s speeches, because, left and right, it would seem, Malaysian citizens – young and old – with no criminal record to speak of, are now being threatened with charges of sedition for stomping on photos, for flying flags and for reciting poetry.
No nationwide manhunt then
To take a step back, it would also serve us – and those who are supposed to represent us in making laws in Parliament - well to remember, that previously there were widely reported cases of groups of people urinating on Nik Aziz Nik Mat’s photograph, stomping on Lim Guan Eng’s portrait, and, I believe, doing equally despicable things to the photo of the BN’s Koh Tsu Koon.
And do you remember a nationwide manhunt being launched then? No, I didn’t think so. But now, flying a different flag from the Jalur Gemilang, is being deemed seditious. And those who did this dastardly act are now being hunted down and condemned by, among others, officially approved ‘historians’.
Frankly, looking at the flag the authorities are now labeling a ‘threat’ to our way of life, it does look very much like the UMNO flag. Perhaps the authorities are right, after all.
But, seriously, folks, one mooning incident? A few revelers stomping (accidentally perchance?) on some photographs? Some kids flying a flag that looks oddly familiar? And a 77 year-old national laureate reciting his gentle poem to a boisterous and noisy crowd that would have hardly heard him?
And you want to lock them all up, hoping to silence them? At a time when you’ve got rapists walking free on our streets? Gangsters disrupting peaceful gatherings? Bags being snatched? Drug dealers offering home delivery service? Corrupt politicians openly fleecing the rakyat?As the tennis great, John McEnroe, would put it: You cannot be serious.
If the purpose of chasing mooners and pre independence flag wavers was to distract the public’s attention away from the genuine positivity of the Janji Demokrasi evening, than this been a success for BN. The press make it seem as if all 10,000 of us were proposing new flags and mooning photos and no official press photos or TV showed people marching peacefully and gathering without incident on Merdeka eve. Instead they harp on the behaviour of say a few dozen people? How sad.
In other countries, people get arrested for burning the national flag.
In Bolehland, they get arrested for displaying non-standard flags!
Sad indeed. These are reactions of insecure BN politicians in power who have lost the vision to be truly national leaders. They have opted to engage in political thuggery against the powerless rakyat. If these BN morons had only acted use their power in a rational and balanced scale the country would have celebrated the rest of Merdeka day in the spirit it was meant to be. Now it is a veiled spirit that was forced on the rakyat.
Edited because it weakens your comment.
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Reeper,
The rakyat is not powerless. They are just indifferent and timid. Time to wake up and hold leaders to account.–Din Merican
Worst is yet to come after the election with such barbaric behaviour of those who are mighty and strong politically.
These high-wired people who are full of themselves – i don;t mean they are making fool of themselves – they imagine that they have become “fabulous” in being Ridiculous…..
is there such a thing as ‘ ridiculously fabulous ‘ or is it a contradiction in the mix-up of the two ?
Fools seldom differ they say, and feeling ‘fabulous in ignorance is a bliss….
BN are just thieves protecting their turf. They will kill and threaten the masses, and by voting them back, we are just suckers asking for more suffering. The plights of Malaysians just reflect our very own stupidity, selfishness and greed. BN do not have leaders promoting the good of our country, it is just a bunch of thieves that have been successful in getting a country of cowards to put them in office for the last forty five years. All of us are in one way or another responsible for them being able to thrive in looting the Malaysian treasury. With perhaps the exception of Penang, this election will again prove that despite all said and done, we are still a country of cowards, bigots and thieves.
Reblogged this on The right of reply and commented:
This is another nonsense garbage thinking we’re stupid. This Ron took a moral highground condemning BN politicising merdeka but praise janji democracy. Utter rubbish. Janji Democracy was simply a political platform to counter BN and the fact that he did not condemn PR who put Anwar who has no selangorian locus standi as the VIP speaker and to receive salutation from the army and police speaks volume his corrupt value. To him right or wrong depends on who does it. BN does is wrong but PR does it its fine. Rubbish. Both are wrong. And to rub salt, this ignorant RON related the afrizal’s case with BN!!! It was the court lah. Its separate from the executive. The Judge decided himself you fool. The judge’s reasoning is similar to those in the developed jurisdiction.
Ellese, the courts are separate from the Executive? Where have you been all these years since the Judicary was tampered with by Mahahtir? It is ALL political. the fact that Judges do not know statutory rape shows they are put there because they suck up. You think its because of their knowledge of the law? and they are independent? Where have you been? You have no idea.
the Judges deccision is similar to those in developed jurisdiction. Can you present the evidence please on this claim of yours. Where is the precedent? which judgement and what pages pls.
Dear Kathy,
There is no such evidence that bn has interest in the case. In fact it’s damaging to BN. Please provide proof that the executive has a say in the case. Raus is still respected for integrity within the Bar. Don’t brush everything with prejudices. Lawyers noted the mitigating factors. Some may not agree but it has justification grounded in law. So Ron to me is simply utterly ignorant.
On the rape issue please read my write up at hakbersuara.wordpress. I’ve given even annotation in a Singapore Law Review. From here its a good synopsis of the laws on what is considered as “romeo” crimes. Teenage consensual act is a problem that have come to our shores. US court has in some instances overturned incarceration for similar cases. See also direction in uk for sentencing juvenile. I propose we relook into the law. Our law should reflect the value against teenage consensual act. Incarceration is not the only solution.
We need to be objective. All solutions cannot be solved by politics. There will be more issues on consensual teenage sex falling under statutory rape. It can happen to any of our children. Our children are exposed much earlier than us on sex. They mature and explore much earlier.We need a relook. If you want we can go deeper. Do read the legal journal as it makes sense before we go deeper. Singapore approach is laudable in my view.
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Comments like this one are welcome. On the Malaysian Judiciary, well, I am not sure. Since 1988 when the Lord President then was removed unceremoniously, our Courts have come under the control of the Executive Branch. Of course, you can disagree with this view.–Din Merican
” ….Our law should reflect the value against teenage consensual act. Incarceration is not the only solution…” – Ellese
That is not the point ! It is not about incarceration being the only solution or not. It is about the question of Deterence to others which must be reflected in the punishment meted out by the Court. There is a ” science ” involved why the the particular Legislation has strictly inserted the bar in respect of age in naming it strictu sensu ” Statutory Rape ” despite it being consensual.
The mischief to be avoided that without a deterent effect, every child can be misled into a state of complacency and being easily ” deceived ” to enjoy consensual sex, resulting in Minors becoming ” mothers ” in very early childhood : the resultant abuses can be dangerous to Society without proper measures of Deterence…..
It is NOT about whether individual judges having intergrity or otherwise…..there is a need for judges to understand the intention of strict legilation/s, and they cannot try to be above the law by so-called exercise of Discretion. And defeat the statutory bar !
Kindly inform us the science of making an offence for sex with an unmarried 16 year old as statutory rape but allow an exception for statutory rape under S376 for sex with a 14/15 year old girl who is married. Are you saying an unmarried 16 year old has scientific ground to be protected than a married 15 year old. Please inform us on the scientific ground. In providing the scientific ground please clarify the scientific reasons why wordwide age of consent can range from 14 to 21.
Ps. I will respond subsequent to your reply. I need to make a point its value driven. Youre arguing purely on scientific ground and we settle this first. Otherwise we get no where.
Ps. On the judge please note Im replying to her point on judiciary. I think Raus is credible even among the bar members I met unless you know something we dont know and I think the broad swipe that Raus is influenced by the executive in this case is unsubstantiated, illogical, unfair and downright wrong.
The reason for the bar in age and strictly stated in law as “Statutory Rape” is standard measure for all civilised society must conform to the best of their Endeavour – the fact that there are still Infringements everywhere, even in Western countries, is another dimension of the problem, somestimes dealt with differently in the West, & differently here in Malaysia. At least in the West, there is no fooling with the Court, Ministers & VIPs go to jail…
Ok, tell me this problem first Ellese in our Country. Why, tell us why, why ….. too much of ” Buang bayi & anak ” ( abandoning of new-born babies in dustbins etc…) very, very marked amongst our own Malay society : it is the GREATEST Sin of Murder, and believe me, it will become a cursed Society when the problem degenerate further & further….
Irresponsible male youths who rape with im punity gets away for free pleasure, whilst the young girls, being frightened to death, take the shortest-cut to ” hell literally…
Wait till it comes to our own young daughters & female grandchildren….
( Ps. Please deal with this Syndrome first in our Society)
Dont be childish ! Science or being scientific is only as the best that be done & stated in ” Law ” (as the sword of Democles) – Behind this so-called Scientific provision, is a whole lot of Philosophical questions to be answered affecting Socities, its moral & Psychological implications, not to mention all the Medical reasons which only ” Experts ” can deal & understand the Magnitude….
So if you want to argue, please enlists all the experts to be engaged here with you HERE – otherwise we all be debating till ” thy Kingdom come ….” ( not to forget, and there is a whole lot of “religious” values involved too – so come)
That is not the point Ellese. Statutory rape is not about consensual. The legislation is clear. The victim is underage. The Judges need to apply the laws and sentence to deter. period.
Mtigating factors do not come into statutory rape , that is why it is known as Statutory rape because it is a specific legislation for this particular situation of underage victims.
Even in your example of consent in young chidlren it is STILL statutory rape no matter which way you want to look at it because they are children . The spirit of the legislation is to protect those who are not adults and moral;y and legally should not be made responsible because they are still young. Do you understand this?
Provide proof of BN being involved? C’mon the Judiciary has been tampered with since 1988 . The Judges are appointed on the advise of the PM , the very same party that Mahahthir is from. It has never changed and we know their modus operandi. I dont care that you support BN just dont tell me it is independent ok. So you do the maths or science since you like this word science so much. Proof? How do you justify acquitting a boy because he has a bright future as a legal reasoning in one fo the cases? How? And the girl,the victim? has no bright future ?not now she doesnt does she? So where is the deterrent ?
Our children are exposed earlier to sex? So? This is your justification? They are STILL children, ?The more reason we need to protect them from rape dont you think? Or are you condoning this? what if it DOES happen to your child ( God forbid) what then Ellese, no jail for the perpetrator because it is the trend of young children to have sex? is that what you are prepared for? And your child? suffers mentally emotionally and her life is ruined? then what? C’mon listen to yourself. So because it is being condoned over seas we must follow? I thought you wanted independence from being told what to do. So do you think that suits our society? The law follows our morality. So you are arguing for the lowering of our morality are you?. Condoning child sex and then reflecting it in rape cases that it is consnesual by a 13 year old. Do you know a 13 year old cannot even decide what shoes to buy/ wear let alone whether she consented to be raped?
All this is okay with you is it?
I seriously doubt in matters of sex our children are mature. You have no idea what you are arguing for at all. This sort of thinking is so dangerous.
Then there is the question of the support system for these children who are supposedly mature and explore earlier than us. Lets see, the girl is 13 or 14 , take your pick. Then she explores sex because we are being objective and all so mature about this and accept that the kids these days are more mature about sex. The boy goes off and is nowhere to be found because he is 20 and has more girls to sleep with? and our legal system is not making them responsible for their actions at all in fact rewarding them by freeing them. The girls is pregnant at that age. What then? Her schooling? her life? Her maturity? if she is moslem, she will be shunned and all sorts of stigma attached to her but not the boy. Shall I continue or have you had enough?
Dear Kathy,
Obviously you have not read what I wrote nor taken liberty to read the article in Singapore law journal on Romeo and Juliet laws. It’s unfortunate. I have done a google search and thought of a more elementary reference.. Please do a Wikipedia search under statutory rape. Read the rationale for the law. The write is not too bad. Then read on Romeo and Juliet laws.
My proposal if you care to read is harsher due to the floodgates of teenage consensual act we will see here. I’ve proposed to outlaw teenage consensual act. Both boy and girl under 18/20 will commit a crime for consensual sex. But the punishment need not be incarceration. We should have laws to express our value against teenage consensual act. But the punishment is to reform and deter. For adult minor statutory rape I’m all for a maximum penalty. But There is something not right in the case where both of 16 years of age having a consensual sex and only the boy goes to jail.
On the appointment of judiciary, if I go by your argument then all the appointment in the developed world is not independent. US president appoints judges leaning to democratic or republican values. And if Anwar becomes pm please note nothing will change. Now go to the fact of the matter. What is the proof that raus acts for bn in this case? How does bn benefits in raus decision. It doesn’t make sense. You allege so please provide proof rather than giving unrelated evidence to raus decision bias.
Abnizar,
You’re rambling. I’ll restate your allegation.
“There is a ” science ” involved why the the particular Legislation has strictly inserted the bar in respect of age in naming it strictu sensu ” Statutory Rape ” despite it being consensual.”
And I said “Kindly inform us the science of making an offence for sex with an unmarried 16 year old as statutory rape but allow an exception for statutory rape under S376 for sex with a 14/15 year old girl who is married.”
You ramble I’m being childish etc. ok. So I take you back to your point. Please tell us the “science”. It has everything to do with my assertion. (since you’re a lawyer please read on Romeo and Juliet laws). Get the reference from my site and if you want layman’s view, search Wikipedia.
Science ( or being scientific ) is no long long, rambligs : it is short, precise and to the point. that is Science ie : to a reasonable point of certainty, simply because no human language can completely comprehend & cover all contingencies and variables in human affairs – impossible !
TThe whole lot of values, philosophical, mental & psychological problems, impact on society , medical considerations on the Child-victims, the traumatic experiences they suffer, not to mention the Emotional ” scar ” all their life virtually destroyed – All these she bears without, – except on rare occassions when the bl..dy attacker confesses -, without complete trace of the Criminals ( they all ‘disappear’ ) in 101% of these kinds of ” rapes” which contain all the “Variables” just in these two words ” STATUTORY RAPE” . And that is precisely ” Science” no more no less, Two Words….
HIGH TIME THE GOVERNMENT MUST PUT THEIR HEART & SOUL IN THIS SCOURGE, rather than mess-up their time & efforts in Unnecessary things of lesser concern. Eg. A Special Task Force or something that must be commissioned to tackle it as of utmost Priority….Please don;t waste time any longer, its long Overdue…..
It used to be we love the country Malaysia but don’t like the government. Now it’s we hate the country Malaysia because of the government. Analyze that, why? and answer truthfully, do you really hate the country Malaysia or is it the government that you hate.
Abnizar,
This is my third time asking. I normally give three opportunities. If you allege back it up. You as a lawyer must be honorable to answer.
The statutory bar for our country is 16. You allege there’s a whole science to this statutory bar of 16 to make it in your own words “stricto sensu”. I highlighted to you that under our law having sex with a 15 year old wife is not. So what is the science at 16.
You’ve so far given ramblings and not backing up your allegation. What you have written is not science at all but mere rhetorics. Provide the empirical scientific datas and justifications to 16. To me what you’ve wrote so far is pure bull respond.
I repeat, explain us the science or I’ll take that you’ve made a conceited argument.
You still don’t get it, you are thick-headed b’coz you have taken firm stand to be ” partisan” (to whatever Ct has decided…etc). I will tell you for the last time what ” Science” is meant HERE in this context. IT IS THE COMBINATION OF ALL THE FACTORS & ALL THE ‘VARIABLES’ which i have described in detail above – which has been CONDENSED in the Two Words ” Statutory Rape ” ( its called Legal Jurisprudence or ‘ the Science of Law ‘ )
Please don’t you think as you ” imagine” that i have to explain all the sciences of the world to you – sheer waste of my precious breath ! You do your own waste of time Rambling, but it is my stand that Science IS precise to that point of ” certainty” in the two Significant Words….full stop there !
You need to go back to School as to what Science means, not what Science is about our entire universe…..so, stop talking further Nonsense, as if I have to explain to you ALL the Sciences that you are curious to know in your empirical sense….i am tempted to bring out my ‘rotan’ next….IF …..
Good Lord, if its a 14 year old with a 15 year old, it is not statutory rape. Statutory rape is between an adult and a child. C’mon Ellese. That is why the adult is incarcerated because he is the adult.
The problem of sex between a 14 and 16 year old is, a social problem isnt it? it could be lack of parental supervision, it could be a marriage break down so the children are going ballistic, it could be drugs, it could be a number of things. That is a separate social problem. There is no incarceration then. It doesnt matter what you are propsoing, it is not a crime in the case of a 14 and 15 years old. it is a PROBLEM, for mother, father, society as a whole.get it?
How can you even go there with the argument ofUSA and other 1st world Jurisdictions? They have NEVER interfered with their Judiciary. Even tho the President selects a candidate it is based on meritocracy and his upstanding reputation in public and uncorruptable personality and knowlegde of the law and leading legal career. In M’sia the events of 1988 has marred all that and we DOUBT that it is independent. Gravely doubt it.
Abnizar,
Youre rubbish. You state: “There is a ” science ” involved why the the particular Legislation has strictly inserted the bar in respect of age in naming it strictu sensu ” Statutory Rape ” despite it being consensual.”
So tell us lah why 16 is the age making it strictu sensu. Elaborate lah. Where is the empirical evidence? Elaborate lah the science argument you claim. Youre making a general assertion aje. Anyone can do that.
And how in the world is my view partisan? BN and PR dont support my view lah. This is another really stupid argument. Go to my blog. Its my views. I defend my views. Ive explained how. Ive even called for a stricter law to combat this teenage consensual act. The statutory provision is inadequate in terms of remedy and scope. Rubbish. Worse you’re a lawyer and can’t even read the credible singapore law journal.
Dear Kathy,
My goodness. How in the world did you derive your first paragraph. I’ve asked you to read but obviously you fail again to read. Now please refer to the penal code on statutory rape. Its section 376. See the word “man” there. It has a definition under section 10 which refers to “a male human being of any age”. Now how did you derive its not statutory rape?
You need to answer this. If you do I think on a long shot you can understand raus’ reasoning. You can probably understand the setting of age at 16 is mainly value driven rather than on a scientific basis. 376 is an inadequate law to handle the consensual teenage sex.
You are so dumb-stupid ! Go and learn the basic first, of what the Word ” Science ” (Scientific) means, yes the ‘definition’ of the word “Science” : See how ” Scientific ” it is when ALL THINGS said and done, all the long-long jumbo-mambo which You dont even understand, only Experts do, the scientific ” Legal” language is condensed & compressed into the short definition contained in just the two Words viz ” Statutory Rape ”
Your intention is not to learn, but merely to cause Annoyance and that is the reason you are Rambling in all your stupid jambo-mambo,
You must be an idiot if you dont understand what i HAVE explained REPEATEDLY how scientific Statutory Rape in the legal provision – All the sciences you are curious about is in that already.
Btw you have not answered my earlier query, why…why…Why this phenomena of ” killing” babies happening in our Society ? If you agitate me further about Science, i will not hesitate to label you a ” Goon ” i consider you unfit to talk to me, and i will ask you to get ‘lost’…..
Abnizar
It is obvious now there is no science on 16. You can’t refer to any empirical evidence why 16 is stricto sensu and ashamed to admit there’s none. The fact of the matter is in the world statutory rape range from 14 to 18.even our law under the same section theres exeception of having sex with girls under 16 provided she’s a wife. This science on 16 by abnizar is just an unsubstantiated argument.
The age of consent for rape is thus essentially is value driven by society.
To those uninitiated and malas membaca, the world is facing rising cases of teenage concensual sex. Our laws will make a boy say of sixteen having consensual sex with a girl of 16 as committing a sexual rape but the girl is scott free. They feel statutory rape offence is an unjust scenario. Thus developed countries developed the Romeo and Juliette laws which these abnizar goons despite being a lawyer fail to grasp.
Now we are seeing and will see more of this teenage consensual sex cases. For sex cases between male adult and minor girl it’s fine for even Maximum sentences against the man. Im for it. (this is where Kathy fail to realize we’re on the same position) But for teenage consensual sex we need a rethink as we see in these cases. If we follow sentencing guidelines in uk etc we need to consider all mitigating circumstances like raus case. To this even karpal admits and request for amendments of the law.
I ask for new laws. The value, as opposed to science, in our country is that we must not condone any teenage consensual sex. We can follow The Romeo and Juliette law even in Singapore but even then to me is a bit liberal on the scope of offence. My contention is that it must widen. We extend the age at least to 18 or if possible and agreeable by all to 20/21. Both girl and boy commits the offence. And thus the manner of sentencing must differ from statutory rape.
It cannot be only incarceration for jailing them will not make them a better person. In this I agree with the judge in pp v mok where the judge says “[y]oung offenders are in their formative years and chances of reforming them into law-abiding adults are better [without imprisonment]. The corrupt influence of a prison environment and the bad effects of labelling and stigmatisation may not be desirable for young offenders.” I agree with the judge.
Romeo and Juliette laws are to make it an offence but sentencing on incarceration need not be the case.
We need a rethink on these teenage consensual sex cases which have hit our shores. The judges and judiciary have made their decisions. It’s the people and parliament that have to push our values back. Though i can agree with Karpal’s call for amendment to the law (but not necessary the scope) but I think we all need to rethink the rising case of 18,17 and even 16 years old having consensual sex. It’s a no no for me.
The only exception I can consider is that they’re legally married.
The line is drawn by stipulation of age under the law, which even if by Consent it is Rape – all the Sciences are in that particular definition of Statutory Rape, all condensed or compressed in there by Legislation….no to split hairs, it will never end….
i have asked many times about Why, why this ugly & painfull phenomena ( re buang anak issue, ) , in which the the teenage girls suffer the ordeals alone while scoundrels & criminals escape.
i am not interested on your line about leniency & mitigating circumstances, & Court can even admonish or bind them over, for all i care – let the Court defend itseld on their right of Discretion, who cares ?
My point is only about the Larger Question affecting society as a whole, not only the stigma, but there must be Campaign for Awareness and education and public concern or even outrage on this rampant buang bayi phenomena, dont you pity these little teenagers ?
My arguements is about PREVENTION or preventive measures that MUST be undertaken COllectively by Authorities & Govt, together with all members of public in the neighbourhood ( give credit where it is due, the Govt has indeed succeeded in the Drug abuses issue to minimise the scourge ), time has become Critical for similar Task Force to address this blight on our society)
you can go on defending the so-called Discretionery powers of Court, nobody is interested seriously !
Its about our preventive measures, education & campaign to instill Awareness…. ( so dont waste time…)
Another false misleading argument of abnizar. Just like when he call there’s science on 16 when he can’t justify one. Then argue my position is partisan when no bn or or takes even my position. Now argues he cares about prevention and not about court discretion. More and more rubbish. My argument is simple. I seek to prevent more teenage consensual sex. There will be more cases like this due to change in value. ( Not science).
Courts here will proceed as in the case of raus coz it’s a recognized corpus even in international jurisdiction. Even karpal acknowledge this fact and had to ask for amendments to the law. So enough of this conning abnizar. We could have had a much better discourse if you don’t make wild unsupportable argument.
I sought to debunk your science argument with value. We then should have moved to what is an agreed value. I had thought that we could have gone a bit detail on adequacy of statutory rape offences and possibly go on the remedy to the law.
You’re a lawyer and should have the decency to stop and admit a wrong argument rather than rambling diverting the point. It would have been more honorable. I have done that in the past where some point of my basis was wrong. But no. You cant. And then You took a moral high ground when you argue you’re concern on prevention as if my writing doesnt talk on any. Huh? Illogical argument.
But to me the most deceitful manner as a lawyer is your refusal even to acknowledge the worldwide Romeo and Juliette laws on overcoming the injustices in statutory rape on teenage consensual sex. If you had given at least give a credible intellectual argument against such worldwide laws I can accept as well. Ini tak.
One final thing – PREVENTION is by the Govt & Enforcement agencies with the involvement of the public with also the help of the psychiatrist, psychologists & medical experts , everybody to be involved to fight & minimise the plague on society ” buang bayi” – like the Special Task force that has been quite successful in the Drug Abuse menace. to great measure…
Deterence is by Court lol, but if it wants to excercise leniency whatever it can justify by so called extenuating circumstances…go ahead. Its the Courts powers, nobody outside is bothered, i am the least bothered – its their responsibility & ” conscience”. we have no say….
We have to have the ” say” by the Preventive measures, public responsibility.
So please don’t be like the proverbial monkey that goes round & round to try & catch its own tail, you will go round mad….still no understand ?
The public can discern an honest argument with one that is not. I don’t have to say much. But let’s see abnizars position.
His final position is this:
“My arguements is about PREVENTION or preventive measures that MUST be undertaken COllectively by Authorities ….
…..you can go on defending the so-called Discretionery powers of Court, nobody is interested seriously !
….i am not interested on your line about leniency & mitigating circumstances, & Court can even admonish or bind them over, for all i care….
Deterence is by Court lol, but if it wants to excercise leniency whatever it can justify by so called extenuating circumstances…go ahead. Its the Courts powers, nobody outside is bothered, i am the least bothered – its their responsibility & ” conscience”. we have no say….”
And now look at his initial write.
“It is not about incarceration being the only solution or not. It is about the question of Deterence to others which must be reflected in the punishment meted out by the Court. There is a ” science ” involved why the the particular Legislation has strictly inserted the bar in respect of age in naming it strictu sensu ” Statutory Rape ” despite it being consensual.”
In short, he complained about the court decision initially not being a deterrent. And he concluded that it’s not important to him on the courts deterrent discretion. He’s concerned on prevention by authorities etc.
So you all decide.
And by the way he wrote “don’t be like the proverbial monkey that goes round & round to try & catch its own tail, you will go round mad….”. Is he writing about himself.
Abnizar you can write as much stuff as you like but we all now know your character. Perhaps as a lawyer you can throw questions here and there without the need to justify, but I don’t tolerate this non sense. And please it’s important we have integrity. As a lawyer this is upmost important. If you’re stuck just own it. It doesn’t make you a lesser person but it sure does improve ones integrity.
There you go again Ellese. i knew it….
The Court has its dscretionery powers yes, use that wisdom or the senile way as you please – What public has the Right to demand, is for Court to be DETERENT looking at the scientific provision of Statutory Rape….if Court wants to free criminals that;s the Court’s right…..( all that art of mitigation & what have you )
Public like me has the Right to clamour or DEMAND for DETERENCE, it is up to the Court. I am not much interested there. What i am agitating for is the Larger question affecting Society as a ” Whole” , with regard to PREVENTIVE actions by Govt & Authorities with public participatioin, its Critical.
i can see clearly you dont have a clue on the Difference i am talking about : Deterence by the Court, Preventive by Govt & Public.
You know why you are the proverbial ” monkey”, b’coz you are going round & round merely TRYING to pin my arguements that i am being ” Inconsistent” – try as you might, you are just going round & round to catch your own tail…you can NEVER suceed, b’coz you have no clue about DETERENCE & PREVENTION – you dont understand even the basics of ” Science “…
Just let me end it this way. In trying to ‘corner’ me you can’t even “catch your own tail” running in circles.
Funny, you have not touched one word about my query on the dumping of new-born babies, and i have been responding umpteen times to yours..
Lack of deterence we have been screaming about, we just have to accept what is the Court’s position for now although we are dissatisfied….But see, Why is the Public Prosecutor taking up on Appeal for Inadequacy of the sentence ? Is’nt that the legal proceedure under our system of the Rule of Law ? Succeed or not, we have to accept the ultimate outcome.
Like Dato Seri Anwar languished for 6 years Incarceration, until he was freed by the Highest Court….that’s the legal science on process & proceedures….
Youre funny abnizar. At least your write made me smile this morning. I give you an A+ for tenancity despite making you a fool. At least this time you acknowledge you’re being cornered and to me a tiny bit of integrity.
People can read and I will let them decide.
Your diversionary tactic will not work on me. You cant explain and answer your first and main contention and suddenly expect people to answer your diversionary subsequent question. Dah lah bro.
I just want to show you that you dont have absolute perception of truth. And actually so do I. You could have taken me deeper trouble if you had use your lawyering skill on the romeo and juliet laws and question the jurisprudential basis of it.
There are some positions which is difficult in value for me to take but had taken it based on my thinking of our current and immediate need which is contentious. But you doggedly divert with scientific reasoning which you have no clue. People will see in simple terms that if its scienitific to protect girls of 16 years old, why do advanced developed countries have statutory rape at 17, 18, 15, 14 etc. Where is the science? And then our own penal code itself made an exception to 16.
You can argue whatever you think your definition of science is but people know you’re just bluffing ignorant stuff. Dah lah bro.
Theres another chance you can thumb me if that is what you want. I am alleging DAP as racist. If Din approves it you can have a field day cornering me pula.