Din Merican: the Malaysian DJ Blogger
I blog, therefore I am–Chris Bowers

On Muhammad Asad’s ” The Message of the Quran”


February 26, 2012

On Muhammad Asad’s ” The Message of  the Quran”

by Dr Ahmad Farouk Musa, Director,Islamic Renaissance Front

Assalamu’alaikum warahmatullah

Allow me to take all of you down my memory lane so that the effort in translating and presenting Muhammad Asad’s “The Message of the Qur’an” is well appreciated.

Let me start by saying that my quest to read and understand the message in the Qur’an as it was supposed to be read and understood has been a life-long journey.

I started reading the Qur’an systematically at the age of 13, at that time more because it has been a ritual for me and many of my friends who frequented the local mosque in Kelawei, Penang. Completing the entire Qur’an during Ramadan was a must and we’re competing among each other to ensure that we will complete the task before the new moon of Syawal was sighted.

I was 15 when the entire country was swept with the euphoria of the Islamic Revolution of Iran. The rejuvenated spirit at that time was so immense that not even the recent Arab Spring is comparable to how the revolution waves hit and transformed many young hearts at that time.

It was during that time that even the Islamic Party (PAS) young firebrands disposed of their existing leader and emulated the Iranian style “Vilayat-e-faqih”. The eagerness to understand the words of God was so intense at that time that I ended up buying an Indonesian translation of the Qur’an by Prof Hasbi as-Siddiqi.

It was the first Qur’an with translation that I read for the years to come and keep until today. What stimulated me to read the Qur’an intently to understand the underlying message was none other than the experience I had at Yayasan Masriyah in Bukit Mertajam when I followed a Tamrin organized by the Islamic Youth Movement of Malaysia (ABIM).

During the Tamrin, I was exposed to a very influential Islamic movement in the Middle-East, Egypt in particular: al-Ikhwan al-Muslimum (The Muslim Brotherhood). It was during this time when I was exposed to the thoughts and methodology of da’wah of al-Imam asy-Syahid Hassan al-Banna. It was then when I first learned about Ma’alim fi at-Tariq (Milestones) by asy-Syahid Sayyid Qutb.

On the first chapter of Ma’alim fi at-Tariq, Sayyid Qutb discussed about the Qur’anic generation. It was the generation of the sahabah, the companions of the Prophet.  The entire premise of Milestones lies on a basic tenet of educating and motivating the potential vanguard of the re-Islamization movement. The book was written in order to re-orientate the Muslim minds in such a way that it could inspire the masses with a transformative revolutionary consciousness as inspired by the Qur’an. First and foremost was the clear spring from which the first generation of Muslims quenched their thirst.

The spring from which the companions of the Prophet drank was only the Qur’an, and only the Qur’an; as the hadith (sayings) of the Prophet were offspring of this fountainhead. The Qur’an was the only mold in which they formed their lives.

It was according to the well thought-out plan to prepare a generation pure in heart, pure in mind and pure in understanding. Their training was to be based on the method prescribed by God who gave the Qur’an, purified from the influence of all other sources.

The method described by Sayyid Qutb in creating the Qur’anic generation was similar to the method of the first generation. They read only a few verses, probably ten at most, and the they refected upon the verses and transformed their beliefs, understanding and actions according to those verses.

About the same time, I read Tafsir Surah al-Fatihah by asy-Syahid Hassan al-Banna where he strongly encouraged every Muslim to read and try to understand the Qur’an using the God given faculty. He recalled the verse: “And as for those who strive hard in Our cause – We shall most certainly guide them onto paths that lead unto Us” [al-Ankabut 29: 69]

It was then that I made it compulsory upon myself to consistently read the Qur’an every day after Maghrib prayer, at least an “’ain” or approximately ten verses and contemplate upon the meaning. I still remember, after two years of my persistent effort, at the age of nineteen, I managed to complete the entire Qur’an and the meaning finally, on one cold winter night. On that night I paused and recollected the important themes of the Qur’an.

Among the most important message that I understood, was the humane nature of the Prophet. He has no supernatural power and definitely not a supernatural being. Surprisingly this important concept was never emphasised before in my life. In Surah al Kahfi verse 110, God says: “Say [O Prophet]: “I am but a mortal man like all of you. It has been revealed unto me that your God is the One and Only God”. [al-Kahfi 18: 110]

This understanding would later turn out to be the most important premise in the evolution of my thought process in the future.

 My next task was to read a more detail explanation of the texts. That was when I got acquainted with two important Tafsirs available at that time in Malay, Tafsir an-Nur by Prof Hasbi as-Siddiqi and Tafsir al-Azhar by Prof Hamka. Coincidentally, just like Hassan al-Banna, Hasbi as-Siddiqi and Hamka were both students of the greatest reformer of the 20th Century, Imam Muhammad Abduh. Reading the Tafsir was accompanied by reading dozens of books on the Sciences of Hadith and Fiqh mainly by the students of the Reformist School of Muhammad Abduh like A. Hassan, Munawar Khalil, Isa Ansari and Hasbi as-Siddiqi; to name just a few.

One of the most important principles of Abduh’s thought is the struggle to reconcile reason (‘aql) and revelation (wahy). The relationship between reason and revelation has been the most problematic issue since the early Islamic centuries.

According to Abduh, “reason” and “revelation” cannot come into conflict with one another, because religion and science are the twin sources of Islam, and that they are active in different areas.

 Therefore, “reason” (‘aql) according to ‘Abduh, is the closest friend of revelation as it helps man understand the sacred texts. If man cannot use ‘aql properly, he remains incapable of showing due respect to God who created him.

A few years passed by before I stumbled across the most important interpretation of God’s word on this matter when I read the book “Islam at the Crossroad” by none other than Muhammad Asad.

 In the chapter About Education” Asad clearly emphasizes that the Qur’an is full of exhortations to learn “so that you may become wise”, “that you may think”, and “that you may know”.Asad also emphasizes on the importance of “reason” in his elaboration of the verse: “and He imparted unto Adam the names of all things”. [al-Baqarah 2: 31]

The Arabic term “ism” (name) in the verse implies according to all philologists, an expression “conveying the knowledge  (of a thing). According to Asad, in philosophical terminology, it denotes a “concept”.

The subsequent verses show that owing to his God-given knowledge of those “names” or conceptual thinking, man is, in certain respect, superior to the angels. The “names’ are a symbolic expression for the power of defining terms, the power of articulate thinking which is peculiar to the human being and which enables him, in the words of the Qur’an, to be God’s vicegerent (khalifah) on earth.

Clearly the attitude of Muslims nowadays who have the tendency to resort to literal interpretation of “texts” (nas), and refuting anything that falls within the realm of “reason” contributes to the stagnation and decaying condition of the ummah itself.

 This articulation in “Islam at the Crossroads” had a very profound effect on my mind and my soul. It answers the question that I have been asking myself all these while. What was it that was so special about being a mortal being, with temptations and definitely not free from committing sins to be more superior than the ever obedient angels.

The sudden enlightenment led me to search for “The Message of the Qur’an”. It answers many difficult questions that I have regarding this religion especially on the issues of pre-destination, the doctrine of abrogation (an-nasikh wal-mansukh), whether the Qur’an is time-bound or timeless , the seemingly contradictory verses of the Qur’an with modern science and other pertinent issues. Throughout the pages of “The Message of the Qur’an”, I found the answers to the questions that have been bugging my mind.

The most precious knowledge that I gained was the reformist agenda of Muhammad Abduh was even much clearer when I read “The Message”. The main problem to many Muslims nowadays is whether Islam would find a way to devise a system between faith and modernity.

A century ago, Muhammad Abduh had argued that while certain aspects of religion would remain immutable especially those concerning ibadah (worship) and aqidah (creed) or known as ath-thawabit (the immutables), however issues of governance should be addressed through human reason since they fall under the realms of al-mutaghaiyyirat (the changing).

It was Abduh’s reformist agenda and rationalism then, with its emphasis on reason (‘aql) and God’s justice (‘adl), which seemed as if it might be able to ground a dynamic Islamic theology capable of successfully meeting the challenges of modernity.

 Alas, what we see today, these promising attempts were thwarted by the rise of the literal Salafis and its ramifications.

 One of the main principles of Abduh’s reform agenda is asserting a claim to “renewed interpretation” (ijtihad)” of Islamic law based on the requirements of “social justice” (maslahah) of his own era. According to Abduh, where there seems to be a contradiction between “texts” (nas) and “social justice” (maslahah), then social justice must be given precedence.

Abduh supports the principle based on the notion that Islamic law was revealed to serve, inter alia, human welfare. Hence, all matters which preserve the well being of the society are in-line with the objectives of the syari’ah and therefore should be pursued and legally recognized.

Abduh believed that independent thinking  (ijtihad) would enlarge the scope of knowledge because most of the aspects of human welfare (mu’amalat) can be further elaborated with the use of reason (‘aql).

He pointed out that since fiqh means “understanding”, whoever makes a legal decision on the basis of the literal meaning of the text only, without understanding the spirit of the law (ruh al-Shari’ah) is not a jurist (faqih).

 ln this regard, he re-introduced the legal maxim “inna al ‘ibrata bi al-maqasid wa al -ma’ ani  wa bi alfaz wa al-mabani”- the consideration is to be given to the intentions and meanings, not to merely words and the phrases.

Consequently ‘Abduh also opposed the literal (zahiriyah) trend and understanding of the text without recourse to reason.

Abduh justified his use of ijtihad on the basis of the following Qur’anic verse: “And strive hard in God’ s cause with aIl the striving that is due to Him: it is He who has eIected you (to carry His message], and has laid no hardship on you in [anything that pertains to] religion.” [Al-Hajj 22:78].

 It was this reform agenda of Muhammad Abduh that was clearly explained by Asad while interpreting the verses of the Qur’an.Considering that the reform agenda is the “raison d’etre” of the Islamic Renaissance Front, it is our obligation then to make the intellectual basis of our organization reacheable to the majority Malay speaking Muslims in our country.

We believe that as the world continues to change, and true to the spirit of reform and renewal, there is a requirement for a second look at the Qur’an and other Islamic texts.

Speech during Book Launch Event of Risalah al-Qur’an at the Islamic Arts Museum on 26 February 2012

145 Responses to “On Muhammad Asad’s ” The Message of the Quran””

  1. Here is a link to those interested to read the Koran translated by Muhammad Asad.

    http://www.archive.org/stream/Quran-MuhammadAsadTranslation/Muhammad-Asad-Islam-Translation#page/n3/mode/2up

  2. Quran cannot be translated.You need to master clasical arabic in order to understand Quran.
    _______
    Dear Ishak,

    Of coz Al-Quran can’t be translated in it’s true form. How do you translate poems? 114 poems to be exact, based on the Surah and it’s 30 Juz?   

    How do you study the Al- Quran then ? The Holy Quran is the most widely read book in the world. But unfortunately it’s also the book, which is a maximum read without understanding.That’s the reason, the relationship of the Muslims with the Quran has weakened, and it has left us with only paying outwardly respect to it, and we have not derived the real benefit and guidance for which it was revealed.

    What a tragic misfortune it is, if you get the Quran and you went away empty handed. Souls untouched, hearts unmoved, and life unchanged.

    The most common of all the excuses is that we do not know Arabic as a language. Today, the world’s population is approximately 5 billion ( in 2009). Out of which more than 20%, more than a billion Muslims are there. And amongst the Muslims, about 15% are Arabs. And beside Arabs, only a few Muslims know Arabic as a language. That means more than 80% of the Muslim world do not understand Arabic as a language. (http://peacepropagation.com/should-quran-be-read-with-understanding/

    On top of that not all Arabs could understand the Quranic Arabic ! Translation is the choice of words describes by human in their own mother language. Translation is not version of Al-Quran. Original Al-Quran is in Arabic language and it has no other version. If you see and hear the Arabic one that is Al-Quran. It is the same like it was 1400 years ago. Never been changed and preserved by Allah swt. Al-Quran was transmitted’ to us in a chain starting from the Almighty Himself (swt) to the angel Gabriel to the Prophet Muhammad saw in form of wahyu.

    From M.Pickthall (One of English Translator)

    “… The Qur’an cannot be translated. …The book is here rendered almost literally and every effort has been made to choose befitting language. But the result is not the Glorious Qur’an, that inimitable symphony, the very sounds of which move men to tears and ecstasy. It is only an attempt to present the meaning of the Qur’an-and peradventure something of the charm in English. It can never take the place of the Qur’an in Arabic, nor is it meant to do so…”[Marmaduke Pickthall, 1930]

    Let us read and learn the meaning of Quran. Some of the words are direct meaning and some hidden meaning and only Allah swt knows.. Like the scientific facts found in the Quran (one of it is about moving mountain 27. An-Naml: verse88), 1400 years ago ordinary people would never know what was exactly the meaning.

    So below is the verse 7 of Al-i-Imran telling us about this. If you lost in translation, please read the commentary by Syed Abu Ala Maududi in bottom of each surah.

    Al-i-Imran, ayat 7 :

    He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:” and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

    So, Ishak, be more circumspect about you say. Remember, no translation can very replace the original. At best, it is an interpretation of the original based on the translator’s understanding of the language and the subject matter.

  3. Yes, literal salafis are holding back the march of modernist Islam. As Dr. Farouk says in his speech today, “[C]learly the attitude of Muslims nowadays who have the tendency to resort to literal interpretation of “texts” (nas), and refuting anything that falls within the realm of “reason”(aql) contributes to the stagnation and decaying condition of the ummah itself.”

    Our present crop of ulamas and other religious functionaries ought to take a more enlightened approach in our understanding of the “meaning of the Quran” and engage in religious reflection and serious scholarship to enable the ummah to meet the challenges of our times. We cannot retreat into religious obscurantism, but instead be ready to adapt and change for the betterment of humanity of the 21st century world.–Din Merican

  4. Ishak,

    Muhammad Asad mastered classical arabic and if you listen carefully to the video clip, you will know he also understood the language of Talmud. Scholars like Abduh, Iqbal, Sayyid Qutb, Hassan Al-Banna, Hamka too knew classical arabic, which is the language of the Quran.–Din Merican

  5. A typical Malay Muslim prefers to ‘mengaji’ the Al-Quran without understanding the messages in it. He is afraid to read the translation of the Al-Quran because he has been indoctrinated since young that the translation is only for the ‘learned’. He prefers to go around just listening to ceramahs and get confused by different ustazs. He is not encouraged to think or to reflect. He does not want to use his God-given mind to think about God’s messages instead leaves the thinking to the ustazs.

    Do read the translation of the Al-Quran. It is God’s messages to every man; Muslims and non-Muslims alike. That is the true miracle of the Al-Quran. It’s God speaking to mankind directly.

  6. It’s God speaking to mankind directly.-Jamal Majid

    You are not serious, are you???

    How come God is not using the latest technology He (I am presuming He is a male according to everybody else, although many women’s lib say God is a female before male chauvinists change His sex) gave mankind to show HImself, say on Youtube or talk in Facebook?

    You mean to say the LAST TIME God talked to mankind was some 1,400 years ago? Where has He been since then?? Busy sorting out the problems of other life-forms on other galaxies???

    Or God felt it was a waste of His time coming back to this outpost of the universe.

    Or is God waiting for mankind to be FULLY evolved Darwinian style before He decides to talk to mankind again???

    It is ethno- centricity at its worse to think that God ONLY speaks in Arabic to mankind. And given that prayers and understanding of what God should not be translated. That is kind of insulting, if you are a Malay or Chinese, never mind if you are english speaking??

    Come on, get real. This is 21st century, not 7th century.

  7. … and I know of some chaps who said God spoke to them, and somehow their fellowmen put them in psychiatric wards.

    And of course, God also spoke to George Bush to ask the US to attack Iraq. READ here

    No proof? He said so himself, so are those chaps in all those holy texts. You got to take their words, include George Bush’s.

    I think it is ridiculous and makes intellectual discussions useless with such declarations. Such declarations shove intellectual thoughts into a black hole.

  8. frank, Jamal Majid meant the translation should be read, The messages are for mankind, ie to do good, to serve others, do not judge others, there is no compulsion in religion , all are translated if anyone cares to read it abnd find out. It is not exclusive to only the Arabs or the moslems but to all who want to read it. Of course you are free to reject and not read. That is your democratic right even God recognises that. He knows that the only way we can learn is to rebel (all children do that).

    Thats what Jamal Majid meant.

    Also he said these silly people who “read” the Koran just read the Arabic verse and have NO CLUE about the deeper meanings of the Book. He is right. They are literalist and they think they know it all. We’d be lucky to be blessed if we know it all by the time we are 85 yrs and upon death it is kinda too late . But that is now a struggle for the Muslims to really debate and understand what our role is , whether to debate or do we not have that right. The other religions are very very fortunate, they are allowed the freedom to discuss and discourse, Muslims are SO indoctrinated that they don’t know How to without getting all emotional and defending God. God doesn’t need their defending of Him.

    Don’t you think, Frank it is good that Muslims should debate their role in society vis a vis the injunctions therein because only then can they contribute positively to this world and your life as a Non-Muslim will be better especially given the confusion in Malaysia.

    I have been reading daily debates around the world about Islam and our role as followers. Only in Malaysia is debate banned ( yes they are in the 2nd century actually) . Every other moslem around the world are debating away about verses in the Koran and the historical contexts of verses and they will get ahead because of it. But no not in Malaysia we have to shut up and take the nonsense told us by a few wearing some Arabic head gear who can quote the Quran in Arabic.

    They have caused so much confusion and in Malaysia they disallow discourse because knowledge gives power to the people and that’s what they don’t want the people to have. They power to know what their rights are as human beings, to not be dominated by any particular sect like the Wahabbis.They want to dominate and put a black hood over the women so they don’t have any opinion and not even an identity.

    BUT we are bron with an IDENTITY arent we, a body language, a thought process, the power of discretion, a functioning brain matter, beauty ( which comes from God) that should be celebrated, abilities that are complete to handle this life because the Koran commands that, “I have only given you challenges that you can handle” and ” With every challenge, I give you a solution”). If only we care to read the omens closely and think deeply about our connection.

    Only yesterday I said to an American fella , that Malaysia needs help; they think they are Arabs wearing the Arabic head gear yet they are not even allowed discourse on their own worship.

    I say let the debate rage for this is worth our journey on this earth to contribute positive especially in Malaysia for knowledge is power to the people.
    ____________

    Kathy,
    Some scholars like the Jordanian trained Dr. Asri, the former Mufti of Perlis, have become dogmatic on certain issues like the hijab. He thinks he is God’s Gift to Malay muslims. Of late, he has become very political.

    Perhaps, Dr. Asri should learn humility from Muhammad Assad, Hamka, Iqbal, Abdullah Yusuf Ali, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Tariq Ramadan et.al and avoid making politically charged statements. Be a scholar or be a politician, that is my advice to this former Mufti. Anyone from the Islamic Renaissance Front care to respond?–Din Merican

  9. … Talk about Islam and Islamic thought of so-called “divine relevations” and the different interpretations or ideas of what is mentioned in the Al-Quran. Leave the generic “God” alone .

    Don’t put words in His/Her mouth (presumable He/She has one, since everybody says God made Man in HIS (??) image. Nobody knows even that for sure.

  10. It is inevitable that it would come to this. Moslems have been stifled for too long dont you think frank. You would have a better life in M’sia the malays need to have deeper knowledge not only on how to live and earn their livelihood but this dimension is real for them. If the confusion about “Sin” is lessened dont you think then frank the malays would function better and not be so dysfunctional?

    This would have an almighty effect on the nation , to uplift the malays out of the siege, their imprisonment by those few.

  11. I cannot image that half, if not two thirds of humanity (or so-called Mankind) will be condemned to Hell for disobeying what God told them NOT to do, according to those “handwritten” texts”: THEY ALL EAT PORK voluntarily. Never mind other things what God said or did not say.

    As I said, leave the generic “God” alone. If we are to believe in those scriptures, He/She has His/Her own problems to solve such as how to stop two thirds of His/Her “children” on this blue planet from eating pork.

  12. Kathy, I tend to be of the same mind as Dr Ahmad Farouk Musa in how muslims should view the Al-Quran in the modern world, and in the 21st century as knowledge expands in human thought.

    We cannot stagnate ourselves to the belief that words written in the Al-Quran is immutable and cannot be interpreted in modern context and that we are forever take words written 1,400 ago to be read in the CULTURAL AND LINGUISTIC CONTEXT of THAT period.

    Even the shape and type of cars evolve from the first car invented by Ford. Even cities evolve over time. Human thoughts evolve yet some fanatical religious leaders want to prevent human thoughts to evolve with the times.

    They still hark back to the constricted view of the world of some 2,000 years ago. They still think there is an “Imaginary Friend in the SkY’ of every individual on this blue planet, so much so that every thing you do GOOD or the Good luck you have, you attribute it to your “Imaginary Friend in the Sky” and thank and bless that “Imaginary Friend” and anything bad, you curse another “Imaginary Enemy Hiding in your cupboard”.

    Religious thought MUST evolve with the times and Religion got to separatge itself from CULTURAL NORMS and Geographical Origins from which it was first establish.

    Otherwise, RELIGION is just another feel-good adventure of the human mind in its idle moments,.

  13. frank, if all were to think progressively I know that we would not be seeing these suicide bombings around the world and blaming the west for everything and not allow discourse and not allowing people to question anything.

    Yes there are some things we need to accept in Islam but there are a whole load of other clauses in there that we are not even looking too, paying attention too or willfully ignoring because we cannot answer them, that is the misrepresentation here and that has been allowed to take root especially back home.

    They are an Island when it comes to Islam ,the malays. I do’t know why this phenomenon. But there are growing numbers like the author who are now coming out more and more to debate and discuss historical contexts.

    Our void is that it is not brought into M’sia and hence the lack of understanding about the Quran and Islam .

    When we can do this knowing fully well our debate and discourse is not about disbelief but rather to fortify belief even more so then perhaps we can have a better quality of outward representation of the verses therein.

    We are late in doing this compared to other religions but I am witness to amazing questions and debates and it can only only be good for the progress of Muslims and its impact on our non-Muslims.

  14. Talking about cars, if we are to not allow cars to be evolved and adapt like those fanatical religious leaders and scholars (who I think are as intelligent as some clever chaps in the mental hospital) from the first car invented by Ford, you guys in Malaysia will be driving on the wrong side of the road, and you won’t be having CDs in your cars. Silly chaps.

  15. Look at this for an example;

    Tunisian President Moncef Marzouki on Saturday called on parliament to outlaw accusations of blasphemy as a threat to public order.

    “Such practices can threaten the peace between citizens living in the same country and lead to conflict,” Marzouki warned in a statement.
    He asked the president and members of the Constituent Assembly which in December approved the North African country’s new government to adopt legislation “that outlaws accusations of blasphemy.”

    Violators of the new law should be prosecuted “to protect the coexistence, fraternity and solidarity among Tunisians,” he said.

    “Nobody has the right to make such accusations against a fellow citizen because such behavior risks leading to violence which is reprehensible in itself,” Marzouki added.

    His comments came a day after Arabic-language newspaper Assabah published an interview with a radical Islamist who branded university professor Iqbal Gharbi as an infidel.

    Salafists have also accused Tunisian journalists and other public figures of not following the teachings of the Koran, the Muslim holy book.

    Tunisia’s moderate Islamist leaders, who took power following last year’s ouster of strongman Zine El Abidine Ben Ali, are under pressure from a radical Muslim fringe.

    The ultra-conservative Salafists have in recent months demanded full-face veils for female university students, castigated a TV channel for an allegedly blasphemous film and beat up journalists at a protest.

    AFP

    this is all unproductive and not necessary. Our journey to find the answers are personal and so this is unecessary for us to do this. To protect who? Allah , from what?

    On what basis and create discord. that we behave as judge and jury and yet leave economics, progression out the window, education, knowledge, all things necessary for living on this earth coz we are busy playing Allah? Ursurping his Role.

  16. Thank God for a decisive Government who doesnt play into their hands which creates discord.

  17. Why did I use cars to compare with religion. You use cars ( or bicycles or motorbikes) to get on with your life, so too is religion, for most people anyway.

    What about those people who don’t have cars, bicycles or motorbikes? Firstly they can’t afford it . As for those societies that don’t have them, they have no religious texts to kill each other.

  18. How  come God is not using the latest technology He (I am presuming He is a male according to everybody else, although many women’s lib say God is a female before male chauvinists change His sex) gave mankind to show HImself, say on Youtube or talk in Facebook?

    You mean to say the LAST TIME God talked to mankind was some 1,400 years ago?

    Religious thought MUST evolve with the times and Religion got to separatge itself from CULTURAL NORMS and Geographical Origins  from which it was first establish. 

    Otherwise, RELIGION  is just another feel-good adventure of the human mind in its idle moments.— Frank

    ——————— 

    Unlike the man made creation of the new testament,  I understand how you feel when the scripture is distorted or as you said evolves to distort the true teaching of one divine book eg Bible ! That ‘s why the Church of Christ emphasis on the doctrine speaks where the Bible speaks and silence where the bible is silent for instance. 

    The same goes to every religion and books, edited / evolved to suit the followers, readers and audiences. 

    Unlike Koran, it remains in it’s original form. It is silly to compare any religion to cars! 

    Probably it helps you to rationalized your belief or non- belief towards any religion.

    Talking about technology, there are current state of art technology described in the Koran. Yes! More than 1400 years ago. It is up to the Muslims to discover them. 

    Hopefully by reading a good translation would help the Muslim to discover more from the Koran. From aeronautical , geology, medicine , wifi, recording etc. are all there to be discovered unless as you commonly used ” OTAK MALAS” ! 

  19. “Abduh believed that independent thinking (ijtihad) would enlarge the scope of knowledge because most of the aspects of human welfare (mu’amalat) can be further elaborated with the use of reason (‘aql).

    He pointed out that since fiqh means “understanding”, whoever makes a legal decision on the basis of the literal meaning of the text only, without understanding the spirit of the law (ruh al-Shari’ah) is not a jurist (faqih).

    ln this regard, he re-introduced the legal maxim “inna al ‘ibrata bi al-maqasid wa al -ma’ ani wa bi alfaz wa al-mabani”- the consideration is to be given to the intentions and meanings, not to merely words and the phrases.

    Consequently ‘Abduh also opposed the literal (zahiriyah) trend and understanding of the text without recourse to reason.”

    Doesnt this sound awfully like the Judicial system that we used to have before it was tampered with.

    The Koran is not just about sin it is about the regulation of human welfare and conduct on this earth. It is the about Order.

  20. Unlike Koran, it remains in it’s original form. -Demorat

    The difference is there is more scholarly investigations into the Bible than the Al Quran.

    Any scholarly debate or criticism of the Al Quran or about Prophet Muhammad, you get your head chop off.

    You can live without cars, likewise you can live without religion.

    Some cannot live without cars, some cannot live without cars.

    People’s attitude towards religion is the same as their attitude to cars except for cars, they prefer cars to evolve from the first Ford T-model.

    It is the refusal to evolve and stick to the same blue print and without looking at whether the blue print fits present need, religion like Islam and others are having a hell of a time, especially in the face of the advancement of science.

    People like you still believe man came from dust and women came from ribs or that the first human is Adam and Eve living in some silly paradise called Eden. What nonsense.

    Silly argument!

  21. correction

    Some cannot live without cars, some cannot live without RELIGION

  22. Dato’, Yes, dogma has no place in discourse and worship. Allah deserves more respect and love than just dogma. He knows we deserve more than jsut dogma. Prophet Jesus/Isa (pbuh) brought the command that we are made in his image, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) taught that”we are made in His nature”.

    What does this mean? This means we owe it to ourselves and to Him out of Love and Reverence to Allah to seek knowledge about Him, that is of Quality. Not literal translations but deep contemplation.

  23. Frank, you talk about Islam with a jaundiced view. Please read more and understand Islam before you talk about the subject. Have you read “The Road to Mecca” by Asad for example? Your ignorance is glaring indeed.

  24. Do you know how scary it is to be told you have to have your limbs cut off for an offence. Yet there are discourses to show that this is pre Islam, as Arab thing.

    Yet why do we persist on not researching all these. Isnt this not holding true to the Koran.

    Why do we persist on putting the Arabs as leaders of Islam when they are not. It is all our personaly responsibility to do so especially if we profess to believe ( make a promise to Allah) in Allah. It is incumbent on all of us individually to seek.

    “No bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another” Koran

  25. I dedicate this to all , everyone here hwo speaks or doesnt;

    Ar-Rafi: The Exalter

    [image: Ar-Rafi; 3K]

    High above all orders of being is He, in almightiness enthroned.
    By His Own will does He bestow inspiration
    upon whomever He wills of His servants,
    so as to warn all human beings of the coming of the day
    when they shall meet Him �
    the Day when they shall come forth from death,
    with nothing of themselves hidden from God.
    *Ghafir* 40:15-16, tr. Asad

    You are a bird of the sea,
    even though a chicken has sheltered you beneath her wing.
    The desire in your heart is for the sea;
    your soul has that nature from your mother.
    Leave your land-bound nursemaid and move on.
    Come into the sea of reality.
    You are a waterfowl: you can live on land and sea.
    You are of royal birth, for� *We have ennobled the children of Adam*:
    you walk on both dry land and sea.
    Rumi, *Mathnawi* II:3771-3772, tr. Helminski

  26. There are many study groups on this issue here in Malaysia. There are a few misconstrued concepts by the Arabs, not the Quran. I am not going to mention which group.

    This group and organizers are not Arabs. They are serious in learning the Koran. We are not going to let the Saudis to dictate to us what’s is the Quran is all about.

    Probably you should join my wife study group.

  27. Hi Dato’ thank you I will contemplate this offer. I am honoured for the invite. Perhaps its time for me to go home.

  28. This is all about Frank speaking in tongue to Kathy.

    Frank obviously is competing with Sir Lancelot for the affection of ‘Lady Guinevere’. Well, good luck to you Frank. Don’t say I didn’t warn you. You could end up as dumbfounded and speechless as Sir Lancelot is.

  29. Go home??? Oh no ! What would happen to Sir Lancelot??

  30. Comment deleted.

  31. sarlet , do you ever take anything seriously at all?

  32. If would be futile, for mere mortals, to conceptualize God. If God only “saves” people of one religion, then He is not God of humanity but a President of that religion?

    If one has mastered the Koran or Bible or some Scripture, and performed all the tenets, rites and ritual, is he assured of “a place in heaven”?

    Any human being, be he an illiterate, an atheist, a gay, an agnostic “can be saved” as long as he adopts ‘LOVE’ (eros, philia, agape) as his conscience and way of life.

    It’s not which religion you belong to but how you live your life as a “loving, selfless” human being.

    Allow me to share the following by Sri Sri Ravi Shanker.

    “Why would you think God is only one? Why cannot God also be many? If God made man in His own image, then what image is He? African, Mongolian, Caucasian, Japanese, Filipino? Why are there so many types of man and so many types of snake, cloud, mosquito or vegetable. There is not just one type of anything, so why should God be only one?

    How could this consciousness that manifested this whole creation and which loves variety, be monotonous? God loves variety, so He must be of infinite variety Himself. God manifests in many names, forms and varieties.

    Some school of thought do not give God the freedom to appear in His many forms. They want Him in one uniform. You change your appearance to suit the occasion, so how can you think there is no variety in the Spirit? Ancient people understood this and this is why they cognized the Divinity as infinite qualities and forms. The Spirit is not dull and boring. The Spirit that is the basis of creation is dynamic and ever-changing. God is not only one, but many.

    When you accept the variety of the Divine, you cease to be fanatic or a fundamentalist?”

    Sri Sri Ravi Shanker (Dallas, Texas, USA, Jan 27, 2000)

    ( Goggle him to find out more)

  33. Sam01, Allah is not God of only one . He is God of all. It is human beings that reject Allah. I know now that you will ridicule me for saying that and all those who despise Islam and the Koran will ridicule me. That is your choice to ridicule me. Yet you quote others freely but you always always refuse to read or even attempt to delve into the Koran. Yet I will say it there is only one God. He doesn not reject us we reject Him. Allah is the owner of us all. He created all the different nations.

    The Koran was the last to be revealed , Muhammad was the last to be sent out of His Love & Mercy. In a culminating act of Love he sent us from Prophet Adam right through to the last, which is 25 Propehts to warns us in many many different ways and in different times. Yet it is your right to reject Him. The Koran gives honour and accord to all , no other revelation does this. All others teach their followers to reject Islam. yet Allah is Love and Love cannot help Himself but to keep Loving, unconditionally.

    Do not distort this , we never said Allah is God to only one, we said plainly and clearly, that He is the God of all Man from beginning till the End. You can have a share in Him if you want but you DONT so dont twist it to say we said He only saves one and not the other.

    Robert, if you feel satisfied to ridicule Prophet Muhammad then keep on doing so. To you be your religion and unto mine be mine. Yet I wll not stoop to your level to ridicule all the Messengers ( Chosen Ones) of Allah sent out of an unending Act of Love to save us all from ourselves.

  34. ” …….. the Jordanian trained Dr. Asri , the former Mufti of Perlis ……. has become very political. – bloghost.

    No , i disagree. I think he is a good BALANCING FORCE vis a vis the Mufti of Perak . The mufti of Perak seems like a literalist . He can’t think.

    But Asri seems smarter, because he uses his knowledge to make meaning and his ” meaning ” seems positive and more palatable with human nature.

    ______________________________________________

    Probably . I came across him telling his audiences not to question hijab. It is a NO brainer question according to him. Sheer arrogance.

  35. Yet I disagree that Islam and our spirituality is about ‘thinking’ as opposed to about what is revealed in our “hearts” (” which cant be denied”, Koran).

    Is the journey in Islam really about htinking or is it about the revelations in our hearts?

    Do you no think that our duty on earth is to reconcile our thinking/mind ( EGO) and our Hearts ( instinct) and to Unite and destroy the duplicity?

  36. Renaissance and Reformation is a very painful process, my friends. But it must be done. There is a need to eschew ‘conventional’ wisdom and authority that cannot be doubted, disputed or diverged. If God was a Newtonian One of Machining, we’d all be Robots.

    I have no place in this thread, even though it appends to an Abrahamic religion. As an Christian existentialist, i believe that true Islamic scholarship and exegesis, is long past it’d due date and that the commentaries discussed here in the public domain helps. Certainly I’m glad that there are efforts to this direction, although the struggle will be long and often times futile. Literacy does not equate to an education, much less spirituality.

    Let me just say that in Orthodox Religion (as a whole), the Mysteries are not really mysteries at all, but Dogma (aqidah) and doctrines held back from the uninitiated so that will not be misunderstood or reduced to cheap approximations. They are a set of ideas and postulates that have to be mastered, when we join a community of believers. Only when we immerse ourselves, we discover ‘visionary’ realities that are cannot be reducible to categories of time and space, and we can truly grasp the experiential wisdom they express.

    Furthermore, comments from skeptics and detractors of ‘Religion’ have no place in this conversation, since they have not understood the riddles of life, the problems of self and the existence of human subjectivity. The Muslims will have to submit to themselves first, before they can submit to their Creator.

  37. CLF your empathy & support is appreciated.

    It is painful process, tears will be shed yet this is less painful than what is going on right now in the moslem world. It is inevitable. Those of us who make a promise to Allah must now see it through. We are the bearer of this promise.

    No its never futile , only painful in the heart. Our job is to reveal what is contained in the Koran, the rest is up to Him, no more no less. He will not allow us to be Judge & Jury since we have not all the facts of another Soul, it is unjust ot hte other and ourself. We have enough to do, to try & get this ‘right” considering “the riddles of life, the problems of self and the existence of human subjectivity “.

  38. ” Scarlet , do you ever take anything seriously at all ? ” – Kathy

    Only his booze .

  39. Only when we immerse ourselves, we discover ‘visionary’ realities that are cannot be reducible to categories of time and space, and we can truly grasp the experiential wisdom they express. CLF

    This is another dream what is yet to be achieved. It takes a long long process of alchemy CLF.

  40. Kat, the key to understanding what the Salafis and other ‘Fundamentalists” never understood, is “to Submit” to another Reality – in which good triumphs over evil (no such thing as a value free universe), justice over injustice (whatever dogma one possesses) and love over hate. That Science and Reason, gives us power over the world, but the Mysteries (some say God) hold us accountable for our stewardship of the Earth and our attempts to establish the ‘beloved community’.

    The purpose of Christianity, like Islam is that the purpose of Life and Thought is Love (which is immortal), not Power (which is material and decays). The basic instinct of Man is uniformity and eschews “Paradoxes” and prefer inviolable “Magical Thinking”. Therein, is the Aqidah, which is wielded as an instrument of Power, instead of Understanding.

  41. Kathy,
    Assalamualaikum.

  42. Frank, you talk about Islam with a jaundiced view. Your ignorance is glaring indeed.-Ahmadi Hussein

    I think I have a more enlightened view of religion than your laser-like view of Islam especially when you are muslim yourself.

    You see the world through the pages of one medieval text that came out from the desert, while I see the world from t more than one medieval text coming not only from the desert. You read the Koran with emotion, I read the Koran rationally and objectively. You must have been taught how to read literature books like Shakespeare’s so that you become more open minded.,

    If being jaundiced can make YOU RATTLE as a MUSLIM, then I am proud to have a jaundiced view of Islam. That means I must have said something RIGHT about Islam. It would mean little to me if non muslims cheer what I say. It means a lot to me if I rattle one-eyed muslims like you with my views on Islam.

  43. timor, alaikum Salam.

  44. for example this is a continuingg ongoing discussion over the seas far away fromm home. Dare we do this back home? yet the whole moslem world is with non moslems I may add rather calmly!

    “Qu’ran does NOT prescribes any punishment for apostasy…

    The traditions about punishment are WEAK,

    It is also significant that the Qur`an refers to apostasy several times (2:217, 3:86-90, 4:137, 9:66, 9:74, 16:106-109, 4:88-91, 47:25-27) and yet does not prescribe any punishment for it. Had the Qur`an not mentioned apostasy at all, we could have perhaps argued that there was no occasion for the Qur`anic revelation to deal with this subject and it was therefore left for the Holy Prophet to deal with. It may also be noted that almost all the verses that refer to apostasy are found in surahs said to be belonging to the Madinan period when the Islamic state had been established and penalties for crimes could be prescribed and applied. Only 16:106-109 appears in a surah identified as Makkan.

    http://​www.islamicperspectives.com​/Apostasy1.htm

    when are we going to wake up?

    CLF even though out of respect you say it is not your place to discuss, I disagree. By virtue of the connection we have as the Abrahamic religions, you do have locus standi. As I can speak about Jesus and Moses ( pbu them).

    All are discussing as we speak, Jews, Moslems and Christians over the seas.
    After all between the 3 groups God ( Allah in the islamic tradition) has got us covered yes?

    Yes CLF it is beautiful, our stewardship indeed of this world, in the Koran it is known as “vicegerents of God”.

  45. I would just like to say that Allah is not the God just for Muslims but is God for all mankind. In fact it is wrong for some Muslims to even try to claim ‘ownership’ of Allah to only for Muslims. His love and grace is for every one of his creations.

    In HIs Wisdom, he has created mankind (gender neutral) to have a thinking mind and free will (unlike the angels). However every sane man can discern between right and wrong, yet he is given the free will to choose. Hence, every man also has the free choice to ‘accept or reject’ Him. Faith is not by accident of birth or coercion but by conscious choice.

    His messages delivered through the prophets are not just for the Jews or Arabs but for all mankind. Of course in a non-literal sense, He also ‘speaks’ to us through His creations. You just need to observe, think and reflect at anything around you to feel His presence.

    For English speakers who want to have an understanding of Islam, for a start read Asad’s translation and explanation of the Al-Quran: “The message of the Quran”. His explanations are simple, thought-provoking yet tailored to thinking minds. I personally feel his work is especially suitable for those with ‘questioning’ minds.

    The Al-Quran is not just about religious rituals; in fact rituals are minimally mentioned. It is more about human conduct; being just, righteous etc etc. Don’t just listen to anyone even an ‘ulamak’ without you yourself reading the Al-Quran in a language that you understand.

    Muslims are not perfect; they are also humans. If God wants humans to be perfect or truly faithful; then humans are no different from angels. It is for us to use our God-given mind and free will to make the choices that will lead us to understand our existence.

    Frank, Sam01, Robert,
    The answers to the questions you posed can be found in the Al-Quran if you care to read it.

  46. Frank, for as long as i’ve known him in this blog is not an Atheist. He’s an Agnostic and has every right to be – in the vein of Richard Dawkins who doesn’t believe in Fairies at the bottom of the garden. Demanding reason is not in the least bit ‘heretical’ or ‘uninformed’, but a valid path to existential truths. I however cannot pretend to speak for the others.

    To say that Allah is God of All is to name the Ineffable Truth, which is “I Am Who I Am;To Be;Will Be”. Now that is to Frank’s and my mind, ‘illogical’, for the Name precedes Islam as revealed by the Prophet.. I would rather call Him ‘Father’ or ‘Ayah’, but not in a Mortal Sense. And so, the ineffable divisiveness and absurdities.

  47. Er Kat, I happen to believe Abraham and Moses are factually unhistorical. They are the ‘Existential Truths’ and Manifest the True Human Condition, The Islamic view is one of ‘solidity’, even though many Christian scholars view them otherwise – as instructive ‘myths’, which is the core of belief. If i were to say that the Virginity of Mary is doubtful, i stand accused of Heresy (which i’m often accused of). But that requires no answer too.

    Faith is not merely historical fact. That does not detract from my innermost conviction. My view of the Trinity as One cannot be explained, only intuited and experienced.

  48. Call Him what you may for what is in a name but the Essence of Him is the Ineffable Truth. However in the language of the Koran CLF His Names are His attributes which have been displayed in this world if only we open our hearts.

    Yet you are exsiting at a realm unbeknownst to most yet until immersing overselves., if ever

  49. CLF you “speak ” in realm yet to be discovered by most. I know that of you yet I have to translate it into a langugae undertsood by most if ever its possible.

    Nothing is further from truth that one has to experience God ( and not think Him)

  50. pardon me that should read nothing is more truthful than to experience God ( and not think Him)

    excuse me I am tired mentally between work and this topic!.

  51. In fact it is wrong for some Muslims to even try to claim ‘ownership’ of Allah to only for Muslims. – Jamal Majid

    I may be cynical about Jamal Majid saying God had been talking to mankind through some texts written by desert people, whether they are Jews or Arabs living in tents and travelling on camels in the Dark Ages and selling that silly idea to other people around the world, on THIS ONE POINT, I fully agree with him.

    Some stupid Muslims in Malaysia and Pakistan still think “ALLAH ” is a personal name and copyright name of God or that “Imaginary Friend in the Sky” and worse, only Muslims are allowed to utter the word “ALLAH” in public.

    At least Jamal Majid is a smarter Muslim than that myopic Muslim Ahmadi Hussein and many other fundamentalist turban wearing PAS Muslims who think only Islam will save the world.

  52. Frankly, we dont have the answers to all things, especially religious ones. So why waste your breathe arguing and getting angry over one another. Is this all worth it?
    Why dont just live like normal human beings. Do we not all carry the same red colour blood? I wonder is there any differ in genetic (DNA) make-up of human between Muslim, Jew, Christian, Buddhist etc, etc. Then also not to forget the differ genetic make-up of American, Malaysian, China (Chinese), Taiwanese (Chinese), Hong Kongese (Chinese) Singaporean etc, etc.
    Come to think of it. Should one give up it faith must a blood transfusion be performed? Yes, if the genetic make-up between human religion is differed. There is no logical answer to such thus why argue till we kill one another?

  53. I think many of us here are exchanging ideas and personal thoughts. I find the questions posed by commentators here are quite valid which some I myself have asked before. Some I have found the answers and some I am still searching for the answers.

    Vic, isn’t it the nature of normal human beings to question and to seek answers including matters of our own existence? Of course we shouldn’t be dogmatic. We can agree to disagree. Knowing other viewpoints which we might not even subscribed is also part of enriching our knowledge.

  54. There is no logical answer to such thus why argue till we kill one another?
    - vic

    Well, you gotta ask those suicide bombers.

    To me there is a logical answer: The 72 virgins

  55. Quite an interesting article and the discussion generated seems even more stimulating.

    For my part , i found the quote in SAM01′s comment attributed to Sri Sri Ravi Shanker about ALLAH quite outstanding . Infact , i see Sri Sri Ravi Shanker’s quote as the least profound and the best contribution to this discussion.

    So thanks SAM01.

  56. The first words that ALLAH gave to us was “Iqra’” “Iqra’” “Iqra’” . Doesnt that signify anything? But reading it alone wouldnt mean anything if there was no understanding of its meanings.

    Someone said that Malays only use Quranic verses to show off their lagu, dengong, idh’rham and to some, to halau hantu, They dont bother to understand the true meaning.

    Then they start to be inspired by male human juristic interpretations of the Quran which creates the dogmas (oops, dogs are haram) that indoctrinate the mental faculties thereby causing the whole ummah to stop thinking and leaving everything to the self appointed ulamaks.

    No women are allowed to have a say in the way the religion is interpreted whereas I was told that there were thousands of women who were hadith narrators the first of whom was Aisya’.

  57. Discourse on this topic is Inexhaustible b’coz ultimately those who believe in ” God ” one way or another have their own Religion : ultimately too it is not about mere ‘faith’ or belief in a Creator, it is about seeking, and knowing or having ” Knowledge” of God ( there is a verse in the Islamic holy book) –

    Many Western scholars like Karen Armstrong has time & again opined the Arabic Language of the Qura’n is very dense & elliptical, so that it cannot be translated into any of the ‘worldly” languages.

    From my humble experience, the Koranic language in Arabic is a ” language ” of (OF) Spirituality, of the ” Spirit” – pertaining to the spiritual dimension, hence people who ” experience” as CLF points out, it is a realm dealing with the Ineffable Reality.

    In this ” seeking “, i would merely say this. If one or anyone choose to ‘believe’ in a Creator ( God ), one can find all the reasons and ‘justifications” to believe Why there is a Supremely Intelligent Force that has created creation ( see for Eg; Sir Isaac Newton & many others). On the other hand, if one chooses Not to believe, equally, one can find all the reasons & justifications Not to believe…this is encrypted in nature….

  58. NikE, what is your point? I don’t get it.

  59. Frank speaks in tongue. Some speak with forked tongue. While some others have no tongue to begin with but hear Satani Verses whispered into their ears.

  60. No other blogger in this country would have tolerated such heated and passionate discussion which Din has permitted here.

    For this we must thank Din, whose thoughts are aeon years ahead of our Muftis , Ulamaks and bigots in this country.

  61. CLF apparently has had an epiphany decades ago and has been speaking in riddles ever since.

    What else is new??

  62. “The Koran was the last to be revealed…. The Koran gives honour and accord to all , no other revelation does this. All others teach their followers to reject Islam.” – Kathy

    I’m confused.

    If Islam was the last revelation, how could the other revelations have already rejected Islam when Islam has yet to be revealed?

    As for non-believers being critical of religion, I think non-believers have a right to question when religion affects the governance of a community in the religion’s favour, disproportionately.

  63. Two wannabe pilots without a licence screaming “I-slam. I-slam” slammed two planes into two tall buildings more than a decade ago taking an unkown number with them for an early and unscheduled appointment with black-eyed beauties of another world.

    Maybe Kathy has something to say. About the 72 black eyed beauties? Where have all the males gone to?

  64. Ai Tze,

    Don’t get confused. Didn’t Confucious tell you??

  65. Go read the “Satanic Verses” by Salman Rushdie. He was a man in a rush to die. Fatwas were issued so he could resolve the problem with his Maker.

  66. Frank, your problem is that, you take every disagreement with you personally. As if it is an attack to your character or intelligence. You obviously an intelligent man but as NikE, mentioned , on matters relating to Islam you need to read more so that you can appreciate the essence and the message of the Koran.

    Not all Muslims are terrorists or endorsed any form of violence. Muslims themselves are challenging the Ulamaks who have dominated the discourse far to long. This is also happening in Malaysia, eg the Islamic Renaissance Front is now engaged in promoting reasoned discoursed.

  67. “If Islam was the last revelation, how could the other revelations have already rejected Islam when Islam has yet to be revealed?” Ai Tze

    Poor Kathy has lost the use of her tongue on this one. To question anything even tangentially connected to the teachings of Islam would be blasphemy.

  68. Democrat,

    The problem with a regliious doctrine with no ecclesisastical order like the Roman Catholic Church is that there is no one authority to help resolve the problem. These so-called ulamaks come in with many views as there are ulamaks.

    It makes more sense to talk about the incompatibility of Islam with democratic values rather than dwell on ideological issues to no end.

  69. Islam is based on the Old Testament values. God of the Old Testament is cruel and punishing and to be obeyed. Sin is defined as disobedience of God’s instructions. Hence to question is blasphemous.

    How then could you reconcile such values with those central to the core values of democracy with its emphasis on the liberty of the individual and the pursuit of individual happiness and free speech?

  70. The God of Abraham is the same God worshipped by all three religions and here Abraham is called to murder his own son. This is the God of the Old Testament.

  71. Seek and you will find. You will find the God of love, of compassion, of mercy in the New Testament. Not of the Old.

  72. I have made that journey; and I should know.

  73. You obviously an intelligent man but as NikE, mentioned , – Democrat

    Are you blind? I am asking what is it Nike is trying to say.I don’t need some idiot to speak on Nike’s behalf and what Nike wrote.

  74. Yes, I don’t have to be polite to you Frank. When it comes to Islam, you are an idiot. Zero knowledge on Islamic concept. Only a true believer would understand Islam.

  75. “….Islam is based on the Old Testament values. God of the Old Testament is cruel and punishing and to be obeyed. Sin is defined as disobedience of God’s instructions. Hence to question is blasphemous.” – Scarlet pimpernel

    Old Testament is nothing more than mythical stories of the Jewish people and to justify their dirty land grabbing tactics of ancient Canaan because they were God Chosen People and they were victims of persecution because of God’s will. They invented the desert version of monotheism where the sound of the desert wind was interpreted as divine whispers and thunder and lightning as divine anger.

    The Old Testament upon which much of the Koran was based is compared to a collection of Shakespearan drama and myths with the main protagonist called God but named variously as Elohim, Jehovah, El-Lah, the latter name in Hebrew became ALLAH in Arabic.

  76. Democrat, I was more than polite to you after reading your comments. Don’t make me say worse things about you. That will be out of my normal character .

  77. Where is the correlation between the Qur’an and the old Testement ??

    The story of Creation is located in the first Book of the Old Testament, i.e. in the early chapters of Genesis. The Old Testament narrative is almost like a storybook; hence it starts off with the story of Creation as the beginning of the story of the mankind. The Qur’an gives a different presentation to its idea and message with regard to the story of Creation. The story of Creation is located in various places within the Qur’an, such as in Sura’ Al-Baqarah, Sura’ As-Sajdah, Sura’ Yassin and so on.

    The Old Testament relates the story about God creating the earth and man in six days (Genesis, 1) and that God took a rest on the seventh day (Genesis, 1-3). The Qur’an also mentions that the Creation takes place within “six days”1 but never says that God had to take a rest on the seventh day. (Al-Sajdah: 4, Al-A’raf: 54).

    The Old Testament relates specifically on what God created on each day of Creation. On the first day, God created the heaven and the earth with light and darkness, which is mentioned as the day and the night. This happened even before God created the sun and the moon! On the second day God created the sky and the oceans. On the third day God gave the earth life. Then, in the following days God created the sun and the moon, followed by the fishes and birds and the wild animals, reptiles and cattle. Finally God created man (Genesis, 1). This sequence of the Creation certainly has several scientific problems with it; the most glaring being the account of the creation of plants before the creation of sun, which is contrary with what we know about science today.

    In contrast to the Bible, the Qur’an does not have any contradiction with established sciences and common human sense. What appears to be a fundamental importance in the matter is that the Holy Qur’an does not mention specifically the sequence of Creation or the manner in how God created the world.

    In Sura’ Yassin, verse 33, we are told that God gave life to the earth that is dead, without mentioning on which day it had happened.

    “A sign for them is the earth that is dead: We do give it life, and produce grain therefrom, of which ye do eat.” 36: 33

  78. You see. There is no end to the issue of who is right and who is right. You can discuss this till the cows come home — and the only one to benefit would be Shahrizat Abdul Jalil.

  79. How then could you reconcile such values with those central to the core values of democracy with its emphasis on the liberty of the individual and the pursuit of individual happiness and free speech?-scarlet.pimpernel  - 

    The Taliban, those turban wearing Muslim fundamentalists , the UMNO-BN regime, the Perak mufti, that myopic Ahmadi Hussein and that busy-mouth Democrat have the answer on how to reconcile. Their response is simple: They shut you up and if that fails, they put a fatwa on your head. See what this UMNO-BN regime and the sadistic Saudi regime did to the Saudi blogged who was nabbed by our police KLIA and deported back with his life on the line if not, on the chopping block.

  80. Are you saying Democrat, that the God of Abraham is different from the God of the Muslims and the Jews? It may interest you to know that Mary is mentioned in the Koran more times then she was mentioned in the Bible.

  81. See what this UMNO-BN regime and the sadistic Saudi regime did to the Saudi blogged who was nabbed by our police KLIA and deported back with his life on the line if not, on the chopping block. — Frank

    Now hold that thought.

  82. You can discuss this till the cows come home — and the only one to benefit would be Shahrizat Abdul Jalil.- Mr Bean

    Mr Bean,

    The cows have called Bungsar and Singapore home. Gemas is not upmarket enough.Not sure whether these “cash-cow adopted children” of Shahrizat’s family living Bungsar are neighbours of Ahmadi Hussein and that busy-mouth Democrat.

  83. scarlet pimpernel

    Democrat has a twisted view of the Koran and by extension, Islam. And he has the cheek to lecture me on what is Islam. Islam gets a bad name from Muslims like him. Closed minded bordering on bigotry.

  84. Islam in other words is incompantible to the values promoted by democracy. Here is a Saudi national and a Muslim who apparently is being persecuted for his views in his home country by his own government. He was here legally and is entitled to the same protection as Malaysians under our Constitution. But what do we do? Was he given a hearing in court and given the benefit of counsel? Was he given the opportunity to make his case to the judge as to why he should not be deported back to Saudi Arabia but to another country willing to accept him? No, we quickly bundled him into a plane to Australia where another plane was waiting to whisk him back, fully aware of what the Saudi regime is all about and what they would do to him. That will never happen in a country claiming itself to be democratic and practice the rule of law..

  85. If Islam is compatible with democratic values of freedom of speech, assembly and association why then do we keep some Malays in captivity when it comes to their choice of religion?

  86. If Din Merican wants to be Dean Merican (Merican is a popular family name over here) why not let him have his free speech right?

  87. Look at Kathy. She switched from Khatijah to Kathy. It is not a coincidence that she is able to escape persecution. She puts her faith in sufism which by some accounts is not a religion at all. In Malaysia she would be detained for two years in a rehab center and after having served time newly recruited Special Branch officers would be more than happy to practice their newly found skills at ‘turning’ on her.

    And all this is happening in a country which calls itself a moderate Muslim country.

  88. Riddles? Yup, and then some.
    Firstly, no ‘sane’ person nowadays would read Genesis as factual. It is allegorical metaphysics, esp. wrt to the days of Creation.
    Secondly, the Hebrews were the indigenous inhabitants of Canaan who became strictly monotheist only in their captivity in Babylon, circa 586BCE.

    The Pentateuch (first 5 books of the OT) are attributed to several writers and redactors spread over a period of half a millennia. So too are portions of some of the major Prophets (esp Isaiah). Exodus happened in a very limited manner, and probably instigated the rebellion of the disenfranchised slaves and commoners against their nobles.
    The major & minor prophets all existed, but Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses are not regarded as ‘prophets’ by the Jews nor Christians, but as Prototypical founding fathers, who are representative of the human condition. As for the conundrum of Bean’s Abrahamic ‘near-sacrifice’ of Isaac, i always considered it as a game of Cosmic ‘chicken’ – God lost! The Jews were the first proponents of Socialism, Nationalism and Racism

    The similarity of Judaism and Islam is most likely because the latter was based on a ‘heretical’ sect of Christianity called the Ebionites, where Deuteronomic dietary and other Laws were sacrosanct. Paulian Christianity did away with the Laws. And Jesus of Nazareth is a Jew, while Jesus Christ is Not. Go read the Nicene & Apostolic Creed.

    I now stand crucified, but not circumcised. Any questions?

  89. Me? What I think of sufism?? I’m happy just to be able to go surfing along Bondai beach in my new ‘thong’.

  90. I now stand crucified, but not circumcised. Any questions?
    C.L. Familiaris – February 27, 2012 at 10:56 pm

    ———————–

    Kathy stands neither crucified nor circumcised. I got a question. Why?

  91. She’s neither a Christian nor a mainstream Muslim. That’s why.

  92. Secondly, the Hebrews were the indigenous inhabitants of Canaan who became strictly monotheist only in their captivity in Babylon, circa 586BCE.- C.L. Familiaris

    Wrong.

    The Canaanites or the Phoenicians were the original inhabitants of Canaan. The Hebrews or the Israelites conquered the land. The leader of was Joshua. They massacred the Canaanites in the name of their Hebrew God.

    READ HERE “The Conquest of Canaan”


    “…The Extent of the Conquest

    In the account of the invasion of Canaan under Joshua (Josh. 1-12), it is apparent that, although the power of the Canaanites was broken by the destruction of Jericho and Ai (Joshua 6-8), as a result of the southern (10) and northern (11:1-5) campaigns, yet the inhabitants were not wholly exterminated (Judges 1:1-36).

    Extermination of the Canaanites Not Complete

    Although the Canaanites were completely massacred when a city was taken, yet in many cases the city itself was not destroyed (Josh. 11:13), and not a few of the people who had escaped by flight or were in hiding returned (Josh. 10:43) to the conquered cities, and years afterward, when the tribes of Israel were scattered to settle, they met with sporadic resistance. Accordingly, places once conquered like Debir (Josh. 10:38-39) had to be subsequently reconquered (Judges 1:11-15). …

  93. The problem Bean, is that no one who wants to keep his head (top and bottom), is allowed to question the “Literal, True and Absolute” Word of God. This situation is that of the Inquisition, but in a more chaotic fashion. Reformation and subsequent Enlightenment is impossible except for the small groups of itinerants, like Kathy. Not to worry, I have always figured you as ‘evolved’. Patterns of recognition that are sure.

    Exegesis (drawing out) and Eisegesis (drawing in) is beyond Abraham’s ability, it seems. God becomes the the Cosmic Persecutor with the Ulamas and other scholars becoming His legalized prosecutor and policemen. You and i know, this ultimately breaks down in externalized Jihad, And to the few like me who see Him as a Loving Infinite/Cosmic Joker, i have ceased to be amazed at ‘Religiosity’. Thus, it’s always our Personal relationship that counts, not outward Jokes.

  94. This revisionist history of Christians and Jews about the land grab of Canaan and the massacre of the Canaanites in the name of the Jewish/Christian God is being barreled out in churches and synagogues throughout history. They say (their God) gave the land to them, and with that excuse, massacred the inhabitants there!!!

    In Malaysia,t he Malays claim this piece of estate as Malay land, actually the original inhabitants are the Orang Asli (Senoi, etc).

    Similarly in Australia. But at least in Australia, the whites have now admitted the Aboriginals were the owners of the land, and White Australia apologised in Parliament for the genocide and the false claim of terra nullius. So did the New Zealanders to the Maoris and the Canadians to the Canadian native Indians. These are Christian countries

    In Malaysia, the UMNO-BN have not done so, and the UMNO paraih Malays gave lip service to the bumiputra status to the Orang Asli in Peninsular and on top of that, continued the land grabbing and depriving of their title rights to their land, like that faced by the Penans in East Malaysia. And Malaysia is a Muslim country.

  95. Er Frank, the archaeological evidence is contrary. There was a lot of conflict then (late Bronze to Early Iron Age) and cities were reduced to ashes, but the uprising was by the Canaanites who claimed to be HBR (the root word of Hebrews). There was a cataclysmic climate change during that period, and the common folk rose up against their Oppressors.
    I think you might be interested to find out about the region (Levant), during this period – say the Sea Peoples, Habiru, Amarna Letters, Ugarit etc In my passion to search out the context of the Narrative, i can now understand in part why the OT was written the way it was written.

    I told you not to read the Bible as Factual History, although it remains the best way to look for place names and personalities. I have no problems reading the OT, because i understand the historical processes and allegorical context on which these stories occur. Like ‘giants’ or the Nephilim and their descendants. But this is not the place to discuss it.

  96. In the Qur’anic view, revelation is an expression of man own true nature (fitra’)..as God meant it to be (30:30)…The knowledge of good and bad and the need to have a relationship with God is found in the depth of every human soul (91:7-10), although in human beings it’s suppressed by various factors such as the influences of society, demand of worldly needs and human weakness like impatience, slavery to one’s desires, arrogance and unawareness to one’s ignorance.The purpose of revelation is to bring this knowledge out of suppression, to resurrect it from its grave in the human soul,…

  97. But the Hebrews are Canaanites who belonged to a sect which nominally practiced Monotheism, since the time of the Judges. Israel is the cognate of “One Who Wrestle with God” cf Jacob. Compendo?

    Moses is not a Semitic root name – he was a full blooded Egyptian, and probably led a bunch of heretics/believers of the egyptian god, Amun (who was elevated to almost a monotheist deity). What happened in the interim of Exodus is a narrative an unlikely bubbling, stammering hero, who never even got to step foot into the Promised Land. See the paradox?

  98. Oops, Bumbling instead of bubbling..

  99. You know, when men gathered they don’t gossip as much as women. So, what do they talked about? Well, men know, it about girls, work, businesses, politics, wives, children, golfs…but hardly religion. Why, men know that this topic brings trouble. Men respect one another religion but hardly talk about them especially if they are from differ one.
    All who discussed here have the benefit of not looking at one another expression. We are out of reach from one another so less trouble. If, I don’t agree I just off my computer that all.
    I post what I post earlier is because Malaysia has many more important issues that can be logically resolved and religion is one pain in the butt issues that cannot. Try understanding the suicide bomber. Does Malaysia want to get there? Many wars can be diplomatically resolved. Many a time the victor detects the terms and peace returns but not religious ones and Middle East is one good example. The religious conflict lasted thousands of years and still on going.
    So, friends which direction do you prefer to bring the entire Malaysian to truly agree to 1Malaysia.

  100. Vic,
    The article above is about renewal and transformation in Islamic thinking. It must be made into an important ongoing process among Muslims. Suicide bombing, hudud, moral policing etc etc are exactly why these renewal and transformation processes are becoming ever important and urgent.

    The Muslim community itself must be actively involved to prevent bigoted ulamaks and politicians who misuse religion for their own ends. This is made even more crucial in a plural society in Malaysia; where the lives of Muslims and non-Muslims intertwined.

    However since this blog also has many non-Muslims commentators, the discussion has inadvertently turned into a multi-faith discussion including the views of agnostics and atheists.

    But the message and focus of the article cannot be ignored.

  101. scarlet,

    I am a of the Islamic religion. Islamic sufism is another level that most are ignorant or deny of. Pls take time to go into Hadrat Muhyiddin Ibn Al Arabi online and read the Koranic verses there and we will have a chat about it one day.It is based on the Koran. So pls dont talk about brain washing etc etc. I did not change my name to kathy, you did.

    Mr Bean I am a moslem . There is no such thing as mainstream or not mainstream . That is a human difference. The revelations of the Koran is the revelations of the Koran. the word mainstream does not exist in this journey of the Koran. If you think I sound like a “christian” its because 90 % of the teachings of Jesus( pbuh) MY PROPHET must be believed by a moslem. He is MY Prophet, how many times do I have to repeat this.

    Ai Tze,

    Islam and the Koran being the “last” revelation fo God ( Allah in the Islamic tradition) and it revealed that all the Chosen ones, the Messengers are from Allah, thus they are Islam. However this is rejected by all except those who rpeofess the islamic way. We accept all the messengers of the one True God ( Allah in our tradition) .Pls read the translated version fo the Koran by Yusof Ali, the best one and its footnotes.

    Ever since the revelation of islam it has been condemned and rejected by those outside the religion,till today inspite fo what is revealed int he Koran. So be it.

    But the Koranic revelation is that All 25 Chosen messengers are from Allah, a revelation rejected by those who do not accept the Koran..

  102. Islam in other words is incompantible to the values promoted by democracy. scarlet,

    sorry its not Islam that is incompatible it is the Wahabbis . ok That is the last time I will explain that it is not the Koran that denies democracy it is the practice of some Egoistic Arab men who have tried for years to dominate women and now other moslem nations. M’sia now tries to emulate Arabs but we are malys nothing to do with their violent culture.

    This is why i said earlier we need to have discourse and find out when it si culture and when it is the command in the Koran and never the twain shall meet.

    But the malays insist on looking to the arabs and bringing in Arab culture and saying its islam like cutting off limbs. it is debated in the world that this si an Arab cultur not the religion . Just like my example of Apostasy , does the Koran really have a punisghment for this?.

    We cant look to the Arabs we must look to the Koran. How many times do I have to say this?

    And yes Nike,
    Aisya ws indeed a hadith narrator. Gender bias is an Arab EGOISTIC male thing( and other egoistic male who have no backbone and cannot handle women who are intelligent) not a Prophet Muhhammad command neither the Koran. The Koran says woman were created equaly in ability and thought and complete by Allah.

    One other thing Mr bean,
    since I have to spell it out here, all the Prophets are Islam. So the implication is is there such a religion called “chritianity?” or is that man made. That is why you are confused with me whether I am this or that? I have absolute faith in all the Prophets teachings including Jesus ( pbuh). he was born and was one of those who submitted his will to Allah and never declared himslef the saviour. thi si the final revelation form Gopd ( Allah ) which you do not believe and many many others dont.

  103. I thank you Dato for this opportunity to express my views on what is a sensitive and delicate subject.

    May the Essence, the Movement of this Universe which is the movement of Love, Allah to some, God to others yet is One and the Same owner of us all , show us the way and guide us constantly towards a Higher Realm in this our journey.

  104. Ignorance is God’s prison. Knowing is God’s palace

    ~ Rumi

  105. One more thing Mr Bean under the Amman Message Islamic Sufism is agreed by Islamic scholars to be a under the banner of Islam and Malaysia and if I am not mistaken Anwar Ibrahim was present at this, is a signatory to this.

    So I ask you politely to quit with this Sufism potraying it as if its not based on the Koran because once and for all ,IT IS.

  106. since this blog also has many non-Muslims commentators, the discussion has inadvertently turned into a multi-faith discussion including the views of agnostics and atheists.-Jamal Majid

    What is wrong with that??

    You know the meaning of inbreeding and the idea of ‘GROUP THINK”, not group thinking.

    Muslims have plenty to learn from atheists and agnostics. These people give those believers in the “Imaginary Friend in the Sky” a REALITY check and keep your feet on the ground instead of having your feet in the clouds and your head buried in the ground.

    People who believe in the “Imaginary Friend in the Sky” hopes for change with their eyes closed, like they do when they pray. 99 % of people pray with their eyes CLOSED ?? Why is that? IIf they open their eyes, they will get disconnected from their “Imaginary Friend in the Sky”.

    But I have no problem looking forward to meeting the 72 Virgins, both with my eyes open. I think Mr Bean would like too.

  107. I am a of the Islamic religion. Islamic sufism is another level that most are ignorant or – Kathy

    To me, Sufi muslims are THINKING Muslims. That is good. They are not by nature bigots. While others are dreaming muslims who tend to be right wing fundamentalist bigots..

    But Sufi muslims, not all, but most, because they think MORE about the world around them, tend to get dogmatic about their belief systems and can have extreme low tolerance of others, especially to non muslims and non-sufi muslims. This is something they must be careful. Some Sufi muslims, when you read their writings, tend to take this attitude, “I know the secret of life and you don’t.”

    I know of at least one Malay Sufi muslim blogger who still engages in racist politics of the UMNO-BN regime to this day and using foul and toilet language to those he dislikes on his blog. He has the gall of putting up Quranic verses on the top of his blog and then exhibit rude AND un-Islamic behaviour and spout stinking gutter language on others.

    The SAD part is thaT he publicly declared he is a SUFI and then publicly display disgraceful and unIslamic behaviour on his blog.

  108. Yes frank, whilst we decalre what we are you are right there is a dnager of Ego taking over and thus this is the veil ( from Allah). The focus is not about being better than others but you are right recognising that for every one has their rightful journey on this earth and their rightful place vis a vis God, Allah the Essence and their perfect status and revelations as such. that this world with all its “imperfections” are th eperfections.

    What I am merely trying to caution is not that I personally am better than anyone else for only Allah can determine that as far as I am concerned for I am merely a seeker on t he path but to caoution everyone about Ego and being self righteous and asking all to leave the journey of the spirit in the private realm .

    That is all. To respect the right of others to seek for all road eventually leads to the same one point.

  109. But I like Jamal Majid, urge the muslims to not be closed minded about robust discussion about their ownn worship and not take anyones word for it. To delve deeper for our own sake and out of Reverence for Allah. To take the time to find out and discuss and discourse to adapt to life in this world too whilst we are here.

  110. frank & Mr bean, this article is not about me or any individual. it is about the Koran. From that he deliberates about thinking, robust discussion. This is what it is about. Not looking to the Arab world , not looking ot anyone. But seeking , seek. this is what si being discussed here. Nothing else. Do not be blinkered seek, challenge oruselves to find out and seek, grow and leanr and seek. period. Look to the Koran. the moslems have to chagne , the status quo doesnt work for us .It is too damaging .fanaticisms doesnt work.

  111. But I have no problem looking forward to meeting the 72 Virgins, both with my eyes open. I think Mr Bean would like too. — frank

    My question (or was it Bean’s) to Kathy was what happened to the women? There is the constant reference to “black eyed beauties waiting at the Gates of Paradise” for the men. Nobody waiting for the women? Which is a legitimate question and one which Muslim scholars had tried to answer.

  112. And as far as Sufism goes, this is a quote from Wikipedia

    “However, according to Idries Shah, the Sufi philosophy is universal in nature, its roots predating the rise of Islam and the other modern-day religions, save for perhaps Buddhism and Jainism; likewise, some Muslims consider Sufism outside the sphere of Islam.[1][12]“

  113. And yes, Kathy do you know if the Malaysian government has not categorized ‘Sufism’ as being among the ‘deviant teachings’ and send you to the rehab center for those who they claim have lost their way?

  114. Did I said it is wrong to have inter-faith discussion or dialogue?

    There are some commentators who seem to derive some sort of pleasure in ridiculing Islam or any other religion; without even making an effort to understand the religion.

    When there is a Muslim suicide bomber, a Christian priest who sodomizes church choir boys, a Hindu who goes on a rampage; some people are quick to point to these as the failings of religion. How come when agnostics and atheists go amok, they are not treated the same way? They failed to understand that these are human failings. The world is what it is of our own doings. Don’t blame God, religion or ‘government’ for what are basically human failings.

    God in HIs Wisdom (which might not be comprehensible to some) has willed that Man has a ‘thinking mind’ and free will to choose between right and wrong; good and evil.
    “And (thus it is) had thy Sustainer so willed, all those who live on earth would surely have attained to faith, all of them: dost thou then think thou couldst compel people to believe..” (10:99)

    To these fellow commentators, I can only wish them well in their quest to seek whatever pleasure that can satisfy them or maybe in seeking a deeper meaning to life….

    By the way, ‘virgins’ and ‘flowing rivers’ etc etc are metaphors used in the Al-Quran. How else to describe the pleasures of heaven to human minds who so far have only experienced earthly pleasures? Of course there are also human minds that cannot comprehend metaphors and insist on things that they can see, touch or hear….

  115. C’mon la guys, give Kat a break. Sufism is the least of the Sunni conservatives angst at the moment. The Hashasin (Assasins) were Ismaili, although none of the Pakatan chaps claim such pedigree, Many Omanis are the more tolerant Ibadi; and what about the much reviled Ahmadiyyas? It seems that the rabid mobs in Indonesia would rather make them into human candles just like Nero did to the loathsome Christians. When it comes to disputes among the sects or denominations, ‘the wine runneth over’.

    Our most august, if ill defined Muftis must first contend with the OWC, which is a very tough Shia sect. Tough battle, since they are tripping all over their ill equipped appendages. Can’t find the answer to such orgiastic happiness!

    I never had a conversation with a Quranist, who rejects the Hadith. Why is that? Wanted to ask Ayah Pin with all his wisdom and syncretism, but i presume he’s bolted to his sky-kingdom, like Elvis.

    I just wish people will just live by the Golden Rule in both the positive and negative forms. Real difficult though, seeing the traffic in K.L.

  116. How else to describe the pleasures of heaven to human minds who so far have only experienced earthly pleasures? – Jamal Majid

    The source of pleasure of heaven are located in only one place – between your ears.

    Heaven and God are found ONLY in the spaces between your ears. Think about it!! Why do you close your eyes to pray to God and think of heaven? You have to IMAGINE heaven and God… and when you imagine, you call forth those firing neurons between your ears.

    What nonsense talking about heavenly pleasures and earthly pleasures. At least earthly pleasures like sex you actually experience it.

    Do you know WHEN and HOW you can experience the Pleasures of Heaven?? And the quickest way to enjoy the pleasures of Heaven

    Here is how: When you are sick, don’t go to hospital. If you have a heart attack, don’t call the ambulance. If your arteries are block, don’t for heart surgery, and if you have cancer, don’t seek treatment.

    Believe me, if what you think where Heaven is, take my above advice. Don’t be afraid to die. If you don’t allow your body to be buried 6 feet below the ground (or cremated for some), you CANNOT GO TO HEAVEN, impossible. If you don’t want to die early, then you can only IMAGINE about Heaven and the pleasures of Heaven.

    People who refuse to die early and wants to be treated in hospitals and doctors to stay alive are hypocrites about wanting to meet God and wanting to go to Heaven. Why wait!!!

    The earlier you go, the less sin you commit on earth with those forbidden earthly pleasures.

    I say to all those religious hypocrites, GO NOW to Heaven!!! It is silly to wait.

  117. Frank,

    There is also the fear of the unknown in-between your ears. Sleep well…

  118. There is also the fear of the unknown in-between your ears. -Jamal Majid

    Fear of the unknown does not mean one has to start imagining or inventing God or Heaven.

    They say, you conquer fear by addressing fear, not running away or finding some escapades from fear.

    The unknown is tomorrow. There is nothing you can do about will happen to tomorrow.

    Praying about tomorrow and planning for tomorrow are two different things.

    Whatever nonsense Buddhism has talked about rebirth etc, at least it got it right when it says you can only think of NOW, today and only YOU can fix tomorrow, not some EXTERNAL BEINGS or your “Imaginary Friend in the Sky”.

    Death is defined as End of Suffering, says the Buddhists. And they are damn right about it.

  119. Let me say here:

    The greatest gift Islam gave to humanity is the real meaning of SHARED HUMILITY

    The greatest gift Christianity gave to humanity is the real meaning of SHARED LOVE

    The greatest gift Buddhism gave to humanity is the real meaning of SHARED UNDERSTANDING

    And the greatest gift Mr Bean and I give to humanity is the belief you can insult others without any thought of malice.

  120. ….. And the greatest gift Science gave and still gives to humanity is the knowledge that Religion is a pile of crap.

  121. The greatest gift to a cynic is a dog ! Yes, only a dog can evoke tenderness in Frank’s heart.

    The disappointments of life, the injustices, the battering events that are beyond our control, and the betrayals we endure, from those we befriended and loved, can make us cynical and turn our hearts into flint – on which only the matches of anger and bitterness can be struck into flame.

    By their delight in being with us, the reliable sunniness of their disposition, the joy they bring to playtime, the curiosity with which they embrace each new experience, dogs can melt cynicism,and sweeten the bitter heart in Frank.

  122. Bow Wow.

  123. The disappointments of life, the injustices, the battering events that are beyond our control, and the betrayals we endure, from those we befriended and loved, can make us cynical and turn our hearts into flint – on which only the matches of anger and bitterness can be struck into flame

    Demorat@7.37am

    you sound like a poet here Demorat

    however i will counter this by saying,

    with all the chllanges that we face in life, let the heart be soft whislt the mind stays sharp because of it.

  124. Actually it’s pointless to discuss about religion with atheist and agnostic like Frank…God enlightened whom “He” chose..and let’s hope people like Frank will be one day…it’s not the about “converting” to the religion to suit one purpose, rather let’s the religion be converted to whom He chose…

  125. perhaps Frank can inquire from Edwin Aldrin, the american astronaut, who was enlightened when landed on the moon…

  126. “Death is defined as End of Suffering, says the Buddhists. And they are damn right about it.”

    A typical Frankian distortion; pluck a quote and leave it in isolation to mislead others. He purposely left out the 4th noble truth in Buddha’s teachings that says: ” we can end our problems and sufferings if we can control our body and mind to help others and not do harm; and generate wisdom in our minds.”

    Know your religions Frank, before you comment. Or are you here just to cause discord or mislead? Frankians will go to any length to win arguments. Guess what? I am not here to win any argument. I am here just to share and learn from others who share the same purpose.

    Ahh.. but I do have a soft spot for you. Here is something for you to ridicule or ponder as you like:

    “And behold, With every hardship comes ease; verily, with every hardship comes ease! Hence, when thou art freed from distress, remain steadfast and unto thy Sustainer turn with love” (94: 5-8)

  127. To be frank, it is not easy to be Frank.

    To be or not to be Frank is a typical Frankian distortion often asked by Frankians themselves.

    Frankly speaking? He is just a grumpy old man.

  128. Kathy & Democrat,
    Surah Ya – Sin, 36:10
    ‘It is the same to them whether you warn them or you warn them not, they will not believe.’
    Frank is a man lost nobody found.

  129. timor, its ok its ok . I am not warning anyone. Each journey is individual . We do not know who is lost or who isnt. We dont have that knowledge. Only He does. We must strive to do the best we can.

    “I am closer to you than your jugular vein” is the command.( Koran)

    So He already knows what we think before we do , what we need before we ask. Prayer is Gratitude , not asking. He already knows what every individual needs.

    This is more about us moslems returning to study the Koran more rigourously, deeper than we have done as we have negelcted to do so by listening to some who profess to be ‘experts’ or just simply hafal ( repeating the verses whilst not understanding) .

  130. Democrat,

    Throughout history since your ancestors came out of the jungle and walk on two legs, the DOG has served humanity better than religious hypocrites like you.

    Dogs will lay their lives for Mankind, but religious hypocrites like you don’t want to die but wants to go to heaven. What an idiot.I will have a dog next to me than to have religious hypocrites within a 10 foot pole.

    Thank God, dogs don’t have religions, otherwise humanity will be worse off ,especially since we already have silly chaps like this idiot “james”, the confused “Jamal Majid” and that awful religious hypocrite who called himself or itself ” Democrat”.

  131. “Abduh justified his use of ijtihad on the basis of the following Qur’anic verse: “And strive hard in God’ s cause with aIl the striving that is due to Him: it is He who has eIected you (to carry His message], and has laid no hardship on you in [anything that pertains to] religion.” [Al-Hajj 22:78].”

    This is what the moslems need, ijtihad which is independent thinking, use of reason,human wlefare, understanding of the Koran not merely words, spirit of the law, not merely literal translation and certainly not just to hafal without any understanding. Just to hafal makes a mockery of the Koran.

  132. “Do you know WHEN and HOW you can experience the Pleasures of Heaven?? And the quickest way to enjoy the pleasures of Heaven

    Here is how: When you are sick, don’t go to hospital. If you have a heart attack, don’t call the ambulance. If your arteries are block, don’t for heart surgery, and if you have cancer, don’t seek treatment.

    Believe me, if what you think where Heaven is, take my above advice. Don’t be afraid to die. If you don’t allow your body to be buried 6 feet below the ground (or cremated for some), you CANNOT GO TO HEAVEN, impossible. If you don’t want to die early, then you can only IMAGINE about Heaven and the pleasures of Heaven.” – Frank

    You’re sure thats the quickest way to enjoy the pleasures of Heaven, Frank?
    Some reflection and soul searching is very much needed NUTRIENT for healthy Brains on earth OTHERWISE no point in going to heaven with unhealthy brains…..YOU can never enjoy the pleasures of Heaven.

  133. “I say to all those religious hypocrites, GO NOW to Heaven!!! It is silly to wait.”- Frank

    Can’t yet cos can’t allow anti religious hypocrites to enjoy earthly pleasures alone….can we? Anyway, at least religious hypocrites can enjoy BOTH Earthly pleasures and Heavenly pleasure…What more can mere mortals ask?

  134. “This is what the moslems need, ijtihad which is independent thinking, use of reason,human wlefare, understanding of the Koran not merely words, spirit of the law, not merely literal translation and certainly not just to hafal without any understanding. Just to hafal makes a mockery of the Koran.”

    How very true although we first need to persuade many of our Muslim brothers and sisters to read the Al-Quran with understanding. There are many verses which state that the messages of revelation are clear in itself so that we can encompass it with reason. There is nothing mystical or abstract that only brilliant minds can understand them. The movement to make ordinary Muslims to take it upon themselves as individual responsibility to read and understand the Al-Quran in whatever languages they are comfortable with; is an ongoing effort. We Muslims must not look upon the Al-Quran as a book to be recited in Arabic without understanding or worse still merely as a holy relic.

    We cannot passed up this individual responsibility to a very small group of people who may then have the power over us in religious as well as our way of life. If we ourselves understand the messages of revelation, we would not be easily misled or be cowed into submission by those who seek to have power over our lives.

  135. Yes Jamal Majid, very true, We need to own our learning of the Koran .It is our individual responsibility. We should nto surrender these to some “expert” who can dominate us.

    Just like we need to own our lives on earth and not surrender our power to anyone else. Because they can con us but our own learning will help us and protect us ( God willing).

  136. What we need is to stop playing with religion. If for no other reason, it is divisive. Religion is personal as it governs Man’s relationship with God and not the government. Our Federal Constitution only states that Islam is the “religion of the federation” and not the state religion: Article 3(1). If it wants Islam to be the state religion it would have stated so. The parliamentary draughtsman meant for there to be a difference between the two.

  137. But UMNO under Mahathir had taken it a few notches higher unsupported by the contry’s Constitution. This trend will continue under Anwar Ibrahim and PAS. The first three Prime Minsters had the right balance and kept the role of religion to religious affairs of the state. Islamization of publc aspects of the people’s lives was never the agenda. Today it has permeated into all aspects of public life. It had its origin in the need for a counter narrative to that of PAS but has since become national (read: UMNO) obsession.

    When Mahathir tapped on the energy of Islamic fundamentalism released by the Iranian revolution, recruiting Anwar Ibrahim into his administration he also put this country on the proverbial slippery slopes. Since then we have been in a free fall and have yet to reach rock bottom.

  138. Our Federal Constitution only states that Islam is the “religion of the federation” and not the state religion: Article 3(1). If it wants Islam to be the state religion it would have stated so. The parliamentary draughtsman meant for there to be a difference between the two – Mr Bean

    Mr Bean,

    The problem is simply these religious hypocrites, especially those in Malaysia who think they are well verse reading the Koran in Arabic (which is not their lingua franca), cannot even read the Federal Constitution properly in Bahasa (for most of them, it is their mother-tongue or father tongue) and in English.That is why I call these chaps a bunch of religious hypocrites. Smarty asses whose brains are at the wrong end of the alimentary canal.

  139. Since there’s light of revelation outside the religion and the non-believers have the possibility of salvation..the ‘world’ of this religion and the non-believing are not distinguished absolutely in terms of good and bad, sacred and evil or light and darkness…

    Other religions are viewed as mixture of divine light brought by the true messengers (..the Prophets) of God and errors introduced by some of their followers..Thus the function of the Qur’an include being a confirmer (..musaddiq) and guard (..muhaymin) of divine lights of earlier religion…identifying serious errors introduced and propagated by some of their adherents…and resolving some of their differences…

    Thus The Qur’an maintains an attitude of constructive criticism towards other religious traditions and their followers are not painted with the same brush…rather The Qur’an expressly state that “they are not all alike”…It praise their good qualities but criticizes some of their weakness …

    In this regard however it’s important to note that such a critical attitude isn’t reserved for only the non-believers but moslems and even the prophet himself can be criticized for their “failings”…The Qur’an as the ‘words’ of the Lord of all humanity, shows no partiality except towards righteousness.

  140. The problem is james, the Quran from the very outset doesn’t allow itself to be critiqued. So your argument is ‘in absurdium’ and a fallacy in self-righteousness.

    No metaphorical work is Absolute, otherwise it’s no longer metaphysics. It would be relegated into the realms of “Science” where it becomes a Fact. There will always be skeptics, because of variability, free will and choice. I’m always conscious of the following processes in terms of importance: Scripture, Tradition (of the knowledge gleaned by our forebears, quite distinct from Liturgy), Reason and lastly Experience (personal and thus inviolable). There is no use praising God when one’s heart (not brain) is anything but incoherent words.

    For instance, if i were to invoke the literal archaic Hebrew meaning of the Aaronic or Priestly Blessing, found in Numbers 6 of the OT, all my Christian brethren will collapse in grief and confusion. The ‘solidity’ of the Hebrew far outweighs the tame, but rather uplifting translations in English.

  141. Sometimes The Qur’an calls the non-believers to “faith” in Prophet Mohammed and the revelation he has been given…(3:179 ; 4:170)…But its perfectly willing to accept that they will choose to continue the religion of their fathers and for this reason The Qur’an identify them as ‘non-believers’ and not other names…to encourage them to follow ‘faithfully’ the revelation…

    Further all this provide excellent basis for dialogues between both parties (…believers and non-believers) through which believers can listen with sensitivity to non-believers and learn about their traditions..and rites/rituals…exploring areas where there’s agreement but without ignoring important differences …especially those that relate to God’s unity and transcendence..(3:64), and as a result of such dialogues there can be cooperation on what is just and virtuous but not on sinful causes..(5:2)

  142. How can you call others non-believers when we reject your revelation and prefer our own which we ‘critically’ have faith in? Isn’t that Injustice instead of inclusitivity? How can a religion refer to itself for being universal, when it cannot subject itself to scrutiny and skeptical inquiry? How can there be humility without doubt?

    I can go on, but i doubt there is any point in talking in opposite streams of ‘reality’. I’ve always believed in short-term free-will and long term predestination (if you are theologically literate, you will find it easier to decipher), so i’ll just end by saying Que sera, sera. And i basically feel that no amount of Interfaith dialogue can succeed with Muslims. Co-existence and civility, yes.

  143. James, CLF et al.

    Ta very much for an interesting discourse on Islam and the non-believers.

    ” How can a religion refer to itself for being universal, when it cannot subject itself to scrutiny and skeptical inquiry? How can there be humility without doubt? ” – CLF

    Is it true that the Koran cannot subject itself to scrutiny?

    Is it the same with the Bible and the Torah?

  144. C.L. Familiaris

    Religious hypocrites and idiots should read THIS article “Get a grip, Jati and PUM!” by Azrul Mohd Khalib, and then have a good look at themselves in the mirrior.

    “…There are far more things that unite us as Malaysians, than those that divide us. We need to recognise and reject attempts to split us….

    There are many non-Muslim scholars in this country and elsewhere around the world who can claim to have read and analysed the contents of the Quran. How many Muslim scholars in Malaysia can state that they have read the Bible, Torah, Guru Granth Sahib, any of the Vedas or any of the texts held sacred by other religions?

    When there is utter confusion over simple things like non-religious occasions such as Thanksgiving and Valentine’s Day, or ignorance of which faith celebrates Thaipusam, you know that there is not much effort being made to understand other religions. The time and effort spent putting together these guidelines would be better spent reading up on Other Religions 101.

    The Ulama Association of Malaysia (PUM) believes that the interaction between Muslims and non-Muslims requires guidelines or a code of conduct. They believe that, because Malaysia is a multi-ethnic country, this would be necessary to help avoid confusion and make people better understand Islam. PUM further states that these guidelines would serve as official guidance on issues related to religion and racial interaction, and ensure there would be no more views and opinions from those who did not have an “authority” in Islam.

    This is utter nonsense. These people are making an ass of themselves and are giving Islam and Muslims in Malaysia a bad name. They are insulting both Muslims and non-Muslims alike. This is clearly an example of bigotry clothed in the sheepskin of religion.

    These people feel threatened by the religious and ethnic pluralism that is the very identity of this country. While they demand that others understand Islam, they make very little attempt to understand the religions of others….”

    If they cannot see themselves as absolute fools as muslims, then they are not only religious hypocrites, but religious idiots of the worst kind.

  145. That is valid frank. The malays need to read other books as well. But the thread here is about knowing thier own Koran first then of course they should read the bible and other books of others faith absolutely. To have an idea of what the beliefs of others are. Absolutely. This will not lessen our faith infact than we can understadn where all are coming form adn what otehrs are about, their faith system and what makes them who they are.

    Mr Bean we dont want people to play with religion either. No way. That is not on. Islam is not childspaly. I know from how you speak you are definitely against Islam being in the public sphere and so am I because it is personal.

    CLF I dont think that is really the case that the Koran doesnt allow itself to be critiqued. It is the fanatics that dont allow. The Koran actually commands that by all means read it and see if you can find contradictions in it. So I think its the fanatics really. Teh fanatcis have no confidence in their own belief and are so afraid that peopel will be converted, rubbish! “There is no compulsion in religion” Koran

    Ai Tze, yes you can read it and find out and read and read and critique and find out and discuss and pls read Abdullah Yusof Ali version and expecially the footnotes in it.


Comments are closed.

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 260 other followers