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Despair over US-Israeli Connection

June 16, 2010

Despair over US-Israeli Connection

By W. Scott Thompson*

BACK in the Cold War days, I asked the famous American strategist Paul Nitze what the value of the Israeli connection was. He had the reputation, long after it had become politically incorrect, of being a bit anti-Semitic; most of his generation was, in America in the upper levels, if they were “Wasps” (white Anglo-Saxon Protestants), until they got scared or reasoned out of it. His response threw me. “The Jews, they can fight,” he said.

Yes, it was possible we really were going to go mano-a-mano with the Soviets, and everything would count if it got down to that. I don’t think my generation ever thought for a minute that such would happen. But if you really thought the Cold War would become hot — nuclear weapons, local allies winning at theatre level, the great battle on the North German plain — you’d value Israel even if you didn’t like Jews.

Suddenly, there’s a veritable storm in America about the strategic value of Israel. But it’s more than just the disappearance of the Cold War. Only a few old Cold Warriors thought about that anyway in the last two decades. It was the “Lobby” that made the difference. For a generation, we came to see that to utter a word that could be construed as anti-Israeli on anything was politically ruinous, even if you were just echoing the Israeli Left.

I just read a piece by two Israelis on how the Venice Declaration of 1980 calling for a two-state solution should have been noted then rather than laughed at by Menachim Begin in Jerusalem. I should know; I helped draft a similar American position for a presidential candidate in late 1979, and it ruined poor Governor John Connolly and made me a target of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC).

Well, the long-time doyen of the Washington press corps, Helen Thomas, made a silly statement last week , that the Israelis should “get the hell out of Palestine… remember these people are occupied and it’s their land… they can go home, Poland, Germany and America…”. She’s almost 90, and should have known better.

But it shows something important. Obviously, for the 60 years or so she’s been in the press, she’s had to keep her peace while being intimidated out of more reasonable positions on Middle East issues. Now that she’s a little dotty, it came out all wrong. But it came out at all only because the “Lobby” has lost a lot of its steam. She no longer felt intimidated.

A one-time colleague, Anthony Cordesman, a most respected defence analyst, has now weighed in. After the required emphasis on how “we’ll never desert Israel”, he then deserts Israel — at least the Netanyahu version.

As does almost everybody else, including a substantial number of Israelis, who wonder about the wisdom of trying to push the American leader around when he’s all they have’ve got, beyond Jewish money in America with which to heavily subsidise American congressional elections.

And it’s a lot more significant that Israelis are even asking if the “Israeli proposition” can survive. But the answer to the question of whether the government in Jerusalem (illegally there, as it happens) can pull back and honour the American connection as we’ve always honoured that with Israel — I think it’s just too late. The cat is out of the bag.

General David Petraeus, President Barack Obama and so many others apart from congressmen waiting for their AIPAC allowance ask the question over and over: “It’s obvious what we do for them, but what do they do for us?”

The old chestnut about their being a thriving democracy in a region hostile to our values doesn’t stand up too well now that Israel is seen (all over Europe, for example) as a pariah, illegitimate state, with a wall like Berlin’s and an ethnic policy looking like apartheid South Africa’s. France boycotted an Israeli film, substituting one about a young American girl killed by Israeli bulldozers.

In California, a five-term congressman from California, Tom Campbell, ran a strong if under-financed race against Carly Fiorina, the ex-CEO of Hewlett Packard, for the Republican nomination for the ripe Senate seat now held by super-lib Barbara Boxer.

The incredible thing is that he has stood up to AIPAC and even voted against rises in US aid to Israel. He would have been splattered at the state level a few years ago. Campbell was pro-choice and pro-gay marriage as well, and still almost pulled off a victory.

If Nitze were still alive, my guess is he’d recommend scrapping the Israeli connection down to its bare bones, down to a simple but formal alliance commitment to defend it if its survival is threatened.

But he’d probably ask the question: if this were 10 years from now and Greater Israel (with its occupied lands) didn’t have a majority of Jews anymore, what is it now that we would be defending and what are they doing for us?

If Israelis can’t answer that question helpfully, they really should indeed despair of the American connection that they have taken so long for granted. The Europeans have de-legitimised Israel; we of America have not — but they need some help to save themselves.

*The writer is emeritus professor at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy, Tufts University–www.nst.com.my

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88 Responses to “Despair over US-Israeli Connection”

  1. The Gentiles in US allowed themselves to be prostituted by the Jewish Lobby with money. The US Congress are prostitutes of the Israel Lobby. Period.

  2. THE USA IDIOTS LIKED TO BE USED BY THE ZIONIST AND THE JEWS..

    They can never ever get out of it !
    They are doomed and will sink together !
    Washington and Jerusalem !

  3. For once i agree with beloved Frank
    America is in the strangehold of the Zionist regime.
    All the elected reps in America are at the mercy of the Jewish lobby., the Christian right.
    Many Congressmen depend on the finance of their Jewish supporters. The media and the banks are mostly controlled by Jews.
    The illegal settlements in Gaza which are Israel’s boundary expansion plans, are build by American Jewish contractors.
    No US President can take an independent stand on Israel because it may affect their re-election.
    President Obama, despite the change he promised, sure do not want to be a one-term president if he’s harsh towards Israel.
    As it is now, his situation is precarious with the oil spill in the Gulf Coast.
    But if you read the major US newspapers, the Americans on the whole are sympathetic towards the Palestinian cause.

  4. The West, who were the main sponsors of the creation of the Zionist State, always knew that it was stealing land from the rightful owners and handing it over to those who have not a shed of claim to it. In the intervening decades those who have suffered to reclaim the theft are labelled “terrorists” while the thieves are “the only democracy in the region, upholding civilised values”.

    The Zionists themselves conveniently forget that in the centuries of persecution of the Jews, it is the Arabs, more than anyone else, who have given them refuge. Such perfidy is rare in human history.

  5. “But he’d probably ask the question: if this were 10 years from now and Greater Israel (with its occupied lands) didn’t have a majority of Jews anymore, what is it now that we would be defending and what are they doing for us?”

    In about the year 2050, according to U.S. Census, United States will no longer be a majority white country. It may still be Christian but Catholic. The ‘browning of America’ is something the whites could not stop. And the fastest growing ethnic group? No, it is not hispanics but Asian.

  6. Quotation

    “We are a white ageing America. They are not making babies. It is a matter of time.”

  7. It is one small step for Ah Chong and a giant leap for China.

  8. And with the loss of the white majority, goes the Jewish influence over foreign policy issues.

  9. Read articles on :

    (a)<a href="http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Israel/IsraelLobbyControlUSForPol.html "How Israel Lobby Took Control Of US Foreign Policy"

    (b)AIPAC report reveals long history of activities harmful to U.S.

    (c)TOP 10 Members of Congress in AIPAC’s Pocket

    (d) AIPAC, NSA Spying and the Corruption of Congress

    FOR MORE ON HOW ISRAEL LOBBY CORRUPTED US FOREIGN POLICY AND HOODWINK THE AMERICAN TAXPAYERS, go to this website called:

    <A HREF="http://www.irmep.org/ila/ THE ISRAEL LOBBY ARCHIVE (click HERE)

  10. OOPS

    FOR MORE ON HOW ISRAEL LOBBY CORRUPTED US FOREIGN POLICY AND HOODWINK THE AMERICAN TAXPAYERS, go to this website called:

    <A HREF="http://www.irmep.org/ila/ THE ISRAEL LOBBY ARCHIVE (click HERE)

  11. OOPS AGAIN

    FOR MORE ON HOW ISRAEL LOBBY CORRUPTED US FOREIGN POLICY AND HOODWINK THE AMERICAN TAXPAYERS, go to this website called:

    THE ISRAEL LOBBY ARCHIVE (click HERE)

  12. It is not the American taxpayers but the Jewish lobby, the U.S. Congress and a White House castrated into taking positions friendly to this single most important lobby.

  13. Mr Bean
    The sad thing is the US supplies to Israel US$7 million per day to sustain its genocide and crimes against hmanity on Palestinians.
    The American citizens did not know this.
    US has been involved in every war that Israel has waged. US supply the latest lethal weapons, fly sorties to replenish petrol and provide the intelligence.

  14. You guys have been reading too much comic strips to make proper sense of the real scenario and now , are down with brain colic.
    Israel say , they’ve god on their side . What do the rest of the world have??
    One precise sling throw by baby David down went giant Golliath!!

  15. “Israel say , they’ve God on their side . What do the rest of the world have??” Danildaud

    They have balls. Just over 2,000 million pairs of them at the last count.

  16. Does that statistics include Maureen? Are you saying Maureen has balls??

  17. If Hillary Clinton had the balls to take on Obama during the campaign for the nomination, who am I to say she didn’t?

  18. It is not the American taxpayers but the Jewish lobby, the U.S. Congress and a White House castrated into taking positions friendly to this single most important lobby.- Mr Bean

    It IS the American taxpayers… who elect and fund the institution of the US Congress and the White House. Who is the sucker of American lobby politics at each election of the US president, the US Congress and the US Senate.

    It is middle America who is being numbed into mental paralysis by the Jewish lobby’s control of the US media and the Jewish and Israeli lobby’s money on Wall Street.

  19. Israel say , they’ve god on their side Danildaud

    Thank “God”, atheists and the communists in China don’t believe in the existence of any god, including the Jewish/Islamic/Christian God called variously as Jehovah, Yahweh, Elohim, Allah, or the Holy Ghost.

    Only the Muslims and Christians are fooled by the idea that the Jews and the nation of Israel have this unproven idea of an imaginary God on their side. That is why Muslims and Malaysian muslims are made suckers by this Judaeo-Christian-Muslim religious ideology founded on the fairy tale written in the Jew’s Torah. The Torah is like Aesop’s Fairy Tales or like stories about King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table.
    r

  20. Imagine the Israeli ministers go to Beijing and tell those communists, “Be a friend of Israel, because God is on our side and we are the Chosen people by God”.

    The leaders of the homeland of the Malaysian pendatangs will say, “How come your God did not send money to Israel” ?

    The Israelis will say, “Our God played some tricks on the Americans to believe our God is their God and made them support Israel. And because the Muslims also believe in our God, they are pumping oil to support the Americans so that America can continue to support Israel’s army to suppress the Palestinians”.

    The communist Chinese will say, ” We are not as stupid as the Christians and the Muslims. We just kicked out the Son of Heaven and put the Son of Mankind to run this country”.

    There you go… Untuk bangsa dan AGAMA

  21. If you don’t know what this “this Judaeo-Christian-Muslim religious ideology “, it is about Abraham or Nabi Abraham as the father of nations of the world… of mankind and Noah, a Jew, saved all the animals in the world from the flood.

    What rubbish !! And we still have educated people continuing to read every Friday and every Sunday this ridiculous fairy tale while Israel continues to let others in the Christian and Muslim world believe they are the Chosen People or People of the Holy Book (as Muslims believe) to continue to suppress the Palestinians (who are Christians and Muslims).

  22. By the way, why are you all surprised by UMNO and Najib being helped by the Jewish firm APCO?

    UMNO supporters are believers in Israeis/Jews l as having God on their side and they have to believe in this Judaeo-Christian-Muslim religious ideological nonsense because they must support this rubbish about UNTUK BANGSA DAN AGAMA kalau tidak Melayu akan hilang di dunia.

    If I am a Zionist or an Israeli, who makes better suckers in this part of the world than the stupid UMNO Malays with their Untuk Bangsa dan AGAMA (a religion that believes Jews are the special People of the Book). Muslims can marry Jews without having to become Muslims, No?

  23. My God! Frank, that’s a mouthful even Maureen would find it difficult to swallow.

  24. My, my, such compassion for our fellow human all the way over in the gaza strip.

    Did anyone protest as much when Indonesia invaded, blasted and murdered its way thru East Timor.

    Now there was an inhumane injustice a mere stone’s throw from our shores. As like the situation in Israel, the Indonesians had tacit approval, advice and support of the USA, specifically Ford and Kissinger. By golly, the yanks even trained KOPASSUS. The US’s foreign policy then was that it ‘feared’ that upon gaining independence, East Timor would become left leaning communist state and depite its tiny size, they feared that the lefties would then subvert and confuse the US puppet Suharto, thereby losing their economic strangle over this region.

    Enough reason to kill right? Malaysia stood by and shrugged indifference, why, because the victims were christians right? Just imagine if Indonesia was majority Christian and East Timor was a tiny muslim land trying to gain independence, the Malaysian navy would have had those floating submarines out there shooting flaming balls of tar at Jakarta.

    Nothing makes me gag more than the thought of our fellow Malaysians angry and up in arms over the terrible injustice over in Palestine, yet choose to be quiet when its religiously incorrect.

  25. Oops… Fellow humans

  26. Right on Emmie. Malaysians always like to see the germ across the ocean but elephant before thieir eyes they can’t see or just plainly refuse to see. Bet you most Malaysians don’t even know the real reason why the Palestinians are suffereing except that they are Muslims. Mind you Palestinians are not all Muslims, there are Christian Palestinians.
    Secondly Palestinine and Israel are too far away but Timor is right in our backyard. The Malaysian government will also use the excuse of ASEAN and rules of engagement and non interference in domestic affairs.

  27. There are powerful American evangelical lobbyist that will support the Jews as they believe that when the Jewish land is free from all but the Jews, Jesus second coming will happen much sooner.

    frank, they were once the chosen people that is true,but no more because of their EGO.
    they are called the People of the book because they have a Holy book yet our Prophet was illterate and was given (by inspiration) the Koran. for you to think it is rubbish is your right and choice.

    We are not suckers the Torah ( which means the Gospel) was given to Moses ( i think, pls correct me) and Abraham was one who submitted his will to the Will of God,who was righteous and chosen to carry the burden of being a Prophet.A heavy burden that no ordinary human can undertake. It is the brotherhood of Prophets (pbu them) from Adam to Mohammad, the Last.

    I know you disagree but it did happen and nothing you or anyone can say to change that truth.

    We are all one in Essence . It is in my Koran that He created different nations. what His reasons are are notf or us to know. What I do know is How we treat each other for the time we are here even though our manifest differences.

    As you correctly point out though we have all failed miserably collectively to treat ecah other with compassion as we are stuck on the outer differences rather than transcending those differences and understanding we are One in Essence.And that is ,i believe the real reason for your cynicism.Nothing seems to work between the people of three major religions.
    However that in itself I believe is the “a firmness of purpose” ( Koran) to weed out those who give lip service to Him and yet profess to be believers.Their outward manifestation of non understanding of His commands which lead to violence and blood shed show conduct of a non believer rather than a believer.

    The US/Jewish alliance is really about trying to summon the second coming of Jesus which they really believe. and thus when it becomes a religious war it is more dangerous because it becomes more personal to everyone involved as we have seen.

    I have seen the sermons on TV out of USA and the talk of helping the Jews to rid of non Jews for this second coming.

  28. Emmie, you are spot on. that is the reason we are in the strife that we are because we choose who to save and not. Yet we are all of the Human Race ,and connected in Essence.

    It proves my word that we have no understanding of His commands that despite our outer diffrences ,the single test upon us all is whether we can transcend all that is different ESPECIALLY all that is different and do the right thing by helping anyone ,everyone who is in need. We have proven that we cannot do it. We are stuck by the o

    And Yet Malaysia still chooses to call itself a moslem nation. I think its time they drop that falsity.

  29. opps ……we are stuck by the outer differences……….

  30. Sayang Bangsa, Obama? well when George Bush junior was President he said to Iran if you give up your nuclear weapons we will bring you back into the fold. Ar least we knew his stand.
    Obama? we still dont know his stand. when trying to please all you please no one.
    Sometimes in life one has to make unpopular decisions, always maybe ,for the greater good.
    what change is he talking about ?the highest ever abortion rates? what change?

  31. “when George Bush junior was President he said to Iran if you give up your nuclear weapons we will bring you back into the fold. Ar least we knew his stand.” Kathy

    We thought he knew where he stood on the world map. Until we discovered that he thought Pakistan was Iran or Iran was Pakistan. You see, Iran does not have nuclear weapons. They are only just developing nuclear capability. Pakistan has nuclear weapons.

    This is the same guy who could not locate North Korea on the world map. This is not surprising since the Republican nominee for the post of Vice President in 2008 thought she could see Russia from her window in Alaska.

  32. Siti Khatijah

    I am not going to repeat my views on this as I have made my case several times on Din’s blog on this issue a few months ago.

    Anyway, truth, especially religious truth, like beauty only exists in the eyes of the beholder.

    Even Sam Harris (who wrote “The End of Faith”) claims monopoly of truth. So is biologist Richard Dawkins who wrote “God Delusion”

    Are there truths in the Jewish Torah and that there is such a person called Abraham as described in the Torah and the Koran and all those stories in the old Testament of the Christian Bible and the Koran. All written by the hands of human beings and given its sacredness on the ASSUMPTION it is inspired by the Imaginary Friend in the Sky?

    See the US’s PBS TV documentary called “The Bible’s Buried Secrets” or go to this program’s website (click here). It was aired in the US in 2008. I think the conclusion is still valid since there is no new archaelogical evidence or any other evidence known to counter-argue the propositions in the documentary, except by articles of faith of the Judaeao-Christian-Muslim followers.

    Read here one review on the above documentary:

    “…..

    Abraham didn’t exist? The Exodus didn’t happen?

    “The Bible’s Buried Secrets,” a new PBS documentary, is going to make headlines.

    “It challenges the Bible’s stories if you want to read them literally, and that will disturb many people,” said archaeologist William Dever, who specializes in Israel’s history.

    “But it explains how and why these stories ever came to be told in the first place, and how and why they were written down, and why they continue to resonate with us,” he added. “So it’s a very controversial film.”

    The “Nova” program will premiere Nov. 18. PBS presented a clip and a panel discussion Sunday at the summer tour of the Television Critics Association.

    I wanted to know: When does the program say the Bible was written, and how many people wrote it?

    The program puts the writing time at the Sixth Century B.C.

    “At least the first five books of the Bible come together during the Babylonian exile,” said producer Gary Glassman.

    The number of authors ranges from the hundreds to the thousands, said Carol Meyers, a religion professor at Duke University.

    Said Meyers: “There are bits and pieces of stories here and there that, over centuries and centuries — like tributaries to a river, tiny little streams upstream, and then they come together and become a couple [of] larger streams, and then you’ve got the mighty Mississippi, which is the Bible.”

    “Nova” series producer Paula Apsell acknowledged that biblical literalists and revisionists both will probably hate the film.

    “When I set out to do this, I very explicitly did not want to make a program that was proving or disproving that things happened in the Bible,” Apsell said.

    But the film challenges long-held beliefs.

    Abraham, Sarah and their offspring probably didn’t exist, Meyers said.

    “These stories are unlikely to represent real historical events, but rather there’s some kernel of ancient experience in there which has survived and which helps give identity to the people at the time the Bible finally took shape centuries and centuries later,” Meyers said.

    There’s no archaeological evidence of the Exodus, either, Meyers said. “It doesn’t mean that there’s no kernel of truth to it,” she said.

    Apsell said she found it “extremely shocking” to learn that monotheism was a process that took hundreds of years.

    “I was always brought up to believe that the minute Abraham and the patriarchs came on the scene, the Israelites accepted one God and there was just always one God and that was it,” she said. “I think people are going to really be stunned by that.”

    Another shocker: The program contradicts the biblical view that the Israelites came from somewhere else into the land of Canaan. “The film shows that they were Canaanites,” Apsell said.

    Apsell said the film has been six years in the making and that it was a science film.

    The important issue for her: What are the writers trying to tell us about their beliefs?

    “To many people of mainstream religious backgrounds, this will enrich our understanding of what our ancestors went through to give rise to the beliefs that many people hold today,” Apsell said. “That was their legacy to us: our God, one humanity and a code of ethics that had to accompany those beliefs.”

    She struck a more diplomatic note than archaeologist Dever did in discussing the likely controversy.

    “It’s a waste of time to argue with fundamentalists,” he said.

    “This film doesn’t do it. It’s designed for intelligent people who are willing to change their mind. And, of course, one film is not going to change religious life in America, but it will give INTELLIGENT people who want to read the Bible in a MODERN way a chance. If we insist on reading the Bible literally, in 25 years, nobody will read it any longer.”

    Do you think you’ll watch “The Bible’s Buried Secrets”?

    NEED I ARGUE MORE??

  33. they were once the chosen people that is true,but no more because of their EGO – Siti Khatijah

    Who says they are no more the Chosen People? The Muslims? Well, the Jews and Christian don’t believe a word in the Koran. So they don’t give a hoot what the Muslims say.

    There is one point I agree with you.. That we are One in Essence, although I would not be mythical about it, we are ONE because we all came out of Africa and mitochondrial studies of the human chromosomes have conclusive evidence we came from one FEMALE AFRICAN.

    By the way, we are of ONE Essence with the Chimps, gorillas, orang utans, bornobos… we are only 2 % different from our cousins in the jungle. We are 98 % genetically related to the chimps and orang utans… and that says alot about Judaeo-Christian-Muslim creed saying Mankind all are made in God’s image. Could God be also 98 % closely related to the chimps, orang utans and the gorilla.

  34. No religion believes that its book was written at a certain period in history. What IS certain is that, almost without exception, they were brought together centuries after their prophet lived.

    That is why religious priests have not been able to satisfy anyone other than a few of their members of what exactly happened. That is also why we should put all priests on a comfortable and far-away island and visit them say once every thousand years to see how far they have got. That way it will allow the rest of humanity to each live with whateve faith he/she is comfortable with

  35. CT Khatijah is having a CT scan after all the hits she’s attracting from Frank.

    When CT regurgitates what she learns from the Holy Book and God, that’s all it takes to rile up poor Frank. We are a country of racial minorities (not too long ago and at one moment in history Malays were a minority in their own country) and religion is very divisive and is best left alone. But it was not to be. Some smart ass came along not too long ago and made a religion the official religion of the newly born federation which to begin with was a mutation of the original and remains one to this day.

    In the case of the United States, there were enough numbers among the founding fathers who had the foresight to see that religion was too divisive and best left out of the country’s constitution. Though that didn’t stop Georgie from bringing God back to the White House to be his confidante in his fight against his nemesis. God, as you know was on R&R when Bill Clinton squirted custard on a blue dress he wasn’t wearing.

    Maureen and CT may want to know that Eve wasn’t the first woman. Later scribes (or was it God?) substituted the real First Lady of the Garden of Eden with a more docile and more submissive Eve. Let me introduce you to Lilith. You can find her in Isaiah 34:14. hidden between the verses.

    http://witcombe.sbc.edu/eve-women/7evelilith.html

  36. The Book of Genesis and all those stories in the Torah which was added into the Old Testament of the Christian Bible and copied with some minor variations into the Koran are fairy tale stories. Mostly developed into the present form by the Israelite who were exiled in Babylon. They had to come to terms with their fate and sought to seek meaning to their fate.

    They had to figure out their fate just like the UMNO pariah Malays are worrying about “Melayu tak akan hilang di dunia”, except the Malays felt they were exiled in their own country by the Chinese and Indians.

    The only difference between Aesop Fables and those stories in the Torah/Bible/Koran is that Aesop Fables did not introduce God into the whole story. If it had, we would have Aesop Fables as part of our scripture to learn on Fridays and Sundays.

  37. Frank, thanks for all that. But the sure way of making someone disbelieve the truth of the Koran is by telling it. I must say one thing though It aint no fairy tale.lets leave it at that and yes I will watch the programme about the secrets of the bible.

    Bean, you have now changed my name twice. I am not sure about CT but Kathy’s good. I agreed with that.
    yes I did get alot of attention from frank didnt I? religion always does that to someone .it riles them……….

    oh and one more thing I never said George Bush was msart I just said we dont know Obama’s stand……….thats even more dangerous.

  38. oops…smart…….. no pun intended!

  39. although frank your points are from the perspective of the physical ,mine isnt and never the twain shall meet……….

  40. Bean I do not regurgitate. I am utterly offended by that. I was however making a stand against franks assertion that all that is in the Books are fairy tales. In fact I have been learning for more than your lifetime…oops but then I am younger……….

  41. you are right on one score thoughfrank , religious truth IS IN the eyes of the beholder and that is where the “moslem world ” has failed by these killing spree………

    I am not asking you to repeat anything. I know your stand . It doesnt matter what you say. Deny reject avert refuse .

    The Koran and The Prophet was sent as a mercy to confirm messages before and the secrets of the Koran also covers the journey of the spirirt to the other realm.

    the difference with me and those so called moslems is I am able to accept your rejection of it as each soul has to answer for its own deeds, they arent.

    I havent asked you to believe in anything I was replying to your claim that it is all a fairy tale. Your soul is not my responsibility its yours.

  42. i cant help but detect such venom though in your tone.pity.

  43. and btw if your assertion is that you are 98% related to the apes than thats what you are. You are what you claim to be. never the twain shall meet, The physical and the realm of the soul.

  44. I can see so many flaws in the arguments that you have presented in that show about the bible.
    1.so if we believe in God we are fundamentalists.
    2. i thought the minute they brought Abraham up they were going to believe immediately. is this for real????monotheism is a process over time. Are they for real???
    3. so if they read the bible ( or any holy book) they are not intelligent? are they for real?only those who dont read the bible are intelligent. wow such intelligent argument for rejection of God.
    4.film was desigend for intelligent people who will change their minds. wow if one doesnt change ones mind one Is not intellignet.

    you who reject and are venomous for some reason of those who do choose to believe have the same arguments all over the world. dont worry frank i have seen enough of them.Each soul has its own journey. no one has a hold over another, its usually the case that those who choose to believe are called all sorts unintelligent, fundamentalist ….all sorts.I am rather dssapointed at the lack of evidence that God doesnt exsit really.

  45. Bean Have I done well. frank has got as many hits, does he need the CT now or do you?

  46. who says they are no more the chosen people? The Koran.

  47. Bean I like attracting….its a girl thing!

  48. who says they are no longer the chosen race?
    their own conduct of being persecutors and their arrogacne and teh Ego has contributed to this .

    dont be upset, frank, that i have dared quoted the Koran. anyone can be rejected by God (oops i forgot you are of the ape tribe) if ones EGO overtakes.

  49. in fact you know frank as i am contemplating, seeking and pondering ( Bean, calls it regurgitates) i am either given the choice that I am of ape descent or my Soul is of LIGHT, you have just made my choices clearer. thank you.

    I hope your journey as ape has as much joy in it as mine.But mine as LIGHT has definitley more Brilliance.

  50. and congratulations frank that you are borne of one female in africa.

    not only are you of Ape descent but of African.

    dismal propects.

  51. Siti Khatijah

    Your response reminds me of those Christian priests living in the 8th century where scientific knowledge comes from religious texts. Where the women like you actually came from man’s ribs and the world began sometime in 4,400 BC and that Noah saved all the animals and dinosaurs never existed.

    You are like a dinosaur, mentally I mean, transported into the 21st century and having a hard time coming to terms with evidence-based knowledge. You still live in a world where spirits rule your life and every shadow you see is a jinn out to haunt you.

    Of course, you don’t think human beings have chromosomes and the word “mitochondria” sounds like a Japanese with a Spanish name.

    I agree with you, our minds will never meet. How can it meet when yours are stuck somewhere in the 8th century and could not move forward in time.

    Here is some articles to bring your brains to the 21st century

    (a) Genetic information about YOUR cousins (click here) and they are mine too

    (b) More Information about Your Closest Relatives and Mine

    (c) Read here about Your African ancestors before you became a Muslim

    (d) Mitochondrial DNA is not the name of your Japanese Friend

    If the above articles cannot enlighten your horizon of knowledge of your humanity and where you came from, nothing else will. Which means the Koran is the only encyclopedia of knowledge and where the world is seen in Arabic words and sentences and where prophets go up into the sky on a cloud!!! And where each time you look up in the sky, you see heaven.

    Yes,…never the twain shall meet……….

    I have no problems going to Hell or Heaven, because they don’t exist.

    By the way, God only exists between your ears, if you don’t know that.

  52. kathy

    I also feel sorry for you because based on your religious belief, you are descendents of a woman who came from a man’s rib. And you believe in a talking snake living in a garden.

    Every scientists have accepted the evidence homo sapiens came out of Africa, except you and Siti Khatijah. Looks like you came from my ribs. And oh, your forefather was Abraham. NO??

  53. “I was however making a stand against franks assertion that all that is in the Books are fairy tales”- Siti Khatijah

    Prove to me they are NOT fairy tales.

    Start with Heaven, where is it if not between your ears. It only exists when the neurons in your brains are fired.

    You mean those prophets in the desert in the middle east went up to heaven in a cloud as stated in the Kora or they went up on a flying carpet?

    Virgin birth??? You can rise up bodily from the dead ?? I thought the worms and the maggots are the ones who will rise up when you are dead?

    People who can hear God or think GOd is talking to them, liek those prophets in the Holy Books are having hallucinations. In the desert, when everything looks empty, it can play havoc on your mind.

  54. Frank, I am Siti Khatijah. I am using my beautiful nick name given by Bean, Kathy.

    This is not the domain to have this discussion in its entirity but I will take you on oit. lest meet and I will have the dabate you so long forokay. I will face you upfront closeup and personal.

    btw i will introduce to you our Sufi master of the 11-12th century who is more profrssive than ape descendants . since you’ve asked me to watch the programme, then you read up all this and we will debate on it.
    http://www.ibnarabisociety.org

    that is so predictable for those who believe in God we are in the 8th century. i expected that from you. and you are the modern man ooops ape.

  55. btw heaven aint in the skies………..

  56. oh and as i said earlier………you ARE qa physical being ( an ape descendant) I am a spiritual being and therefore form the essence which is LIGHT. The Energy felt in all hearts as LOVE. So never the twain shall meet.

    I am tho looking forward to our meet and debate upclose and personal. once you have read my Magister Maximus Hadrat Muhyiddin Ibn Al arabi a spanish andalusian, you can also read Professor Toshihiko Isutzu’s, “Creationa dn the time;less Order of things”. Once all that has been read and I have more, Hadrat Sheikh Abdul Qadir Al Jilani’s “Secret of Secrets” then we will talk, a civilised discourse, not ape like and calling names but of the highest consciousness like ,man like ,LIGHT like, love like

  57. Kathy

    Thanks for the link. But that will not forward the discussion.

    It is like asking me read the Book of Genesis to prove that Man came from Adam and Eve.

    Or to suggest that to find proof of the existence of God, is to read the Christian Bible and the Koran.

    That is not evidence-based knowledge that is faith-based.

    We are all primates… or ape in the colloquial sense. To deny you are a member of a primate group is like denying who your father and mother are. Surely you learnt biology or read remotely about our biological existence.

    If Man is made in God’s image, what is the image of God? If God has no image, then Man has no image except for the evolved similarity of chimps, orang utans and gorillas.

    No, kathy, I strongly would like you to come to the 21st century, because you are intelligent, discerning, and verysharp in intellect. Sharper than Mr Bean, I would say. I hate to see such smart brain like you have badly constricted, marginalised, soiled, fermented and laid to waste by the fairy tales you learnt and got indoctrinated since you were 7 years old in enforced religious classes you had to attend by your parents and by your peers.

    Come out and look at the world from outside that enclosed box which those parochial religionists wanting you to be, so that you continue to support the silliness of those fairy tales.

  58. frank I would like to say the same of you. whilst our physical entity is necessary for this physical life (genes, chromosomes etc etc) our spirit is of a higher purpose and make and Source. I will meet with you and debate this. I thank you for your compliments of me I return the same.

  59. evidnece based will be revealed once you are willing to open up your soul to these “assertions” of mine as they have been revealed to me. I look forward to our upclose and personal discourse.

  60. btw my discernment , my intellect and my intelliegence is attrributable to the Essence, the LIGHT. Especially my Discernment.

  61. I am a spiritual being and therefore form the essence which is LIGHT. The Energy felt in all hearts as LOVE.

    Now you come into the arena of mysticism and those yoga-ism.

    Here a good background paper for you to know more about Albert Einstein’s Light and Beatle’s Love in Mysticism

    Do you know that mysticism of Sufism (which I think is where you are coming from)shared almost the same belief systems in Hindusim, if you care to know of the history of Sufism.

    Click here to read: Sufism and Hinduism Resemble each other

    Otherwise, be in the company of Elizabeth Taylor, Courtney Love, Victoria Beckham etc and join Kabbalism, another mystic belief which also says, “The essence of God is referred to in its teachings as Light. In the beginning, there was only Light, but its nature was to share and it had no recipient for this natural desire.

    Or that is too extreme, then join Tom Cruise in another crazy idea called Scientology.

    Or join the Sai Baba movement.. also about Light from outer space.

  62. btw i dsipute that experiencing spirituality is faith based only as I have evidence .

  63. i have never been to any religious classess @ school or home. I donot read the Koran like the massess do. you dont know me at all. I am Sufi Moslem.

  64. Islamic Sufism is outside the square and has been hidden. Is only for those who wish to seek and discern and very much evidenced based.

  65. You are quoting the Bible.

    I am on the path a seeker.

    The Koran ie Islamic Sufism, the Koran (Sufism)has been revealed to further the secret of Man vis a vis the Creator/ the Essence ( as you are comfortable with that term ,its a beautiful Name, the energy that is Love is the other beautiful Name ).

  66. I am Sufi Moslem – kathy

    I knew you are after reading two postings of yours.

    Sufism is Islam’s version of Gnosticism in Christianity.

  67. frank, it is a better version.

    if you knew than why did you assume i was forced to go to religious classess. regurgitate the Koran blindly like I was told, not question anything at all (rubbish teachings from weak minded persons. they do dishonour to the life given to them) read the Koran since i was 7, believe in all the rubbish the imams want the massess to believe .

    you assume too much of me. because my name is malay.

    just for once oin your life shut your mind and open your soul.

  68. just by quoting Hinduism, teachings of light, gnosticism ect etc that you have cleverly quoted, is evidence that we are all from the Essence but there is a difference.

    yuo are cynical about the existence fo your Soul connected to the LIGHT.the Essence. That is you right. as i have said before. nothing to do with me. your journey.
    Sai Baba is an excellent example.

    you do not need to teach me re”sufism. you are too ready to show me ho clever you are. good on ye. I am not here to show I am cleverer or otherwise. you howver are . so be it.

    you speak but dont listen enough. you think you have all the answers. good luck to you as I said before in your journey in life.
    I am here to use everything I posessess be it physical genetic make up, Essence of who I am to try and make some difference in the short time of my life.

    you decide what you want to do with your short time on earth.

  69. btw,Gnoticism is Chrititanity’s version of Sufism.Is lam came first.

  70. oops.christianity…that too.before Din start with me again!

  71. Kathy, you got your history wrong.

    Islam came 600 years after Christianity. And every New Year Eve, the world celebrates the existence of Jesus Christ eg now we are 2010 years after the time of the man who came to live after being dead for 3 days and then recognised as God in human flesh. As a variation to the theme, in the Koran, Jesus was brought up to heaven by Allah on a cloud, instead of being nailed to the cross. Another good fairy tale.

  72. Siti Khatijah aka Kathy

    I did not say you are a Malay. You did say you are Sufi “Moslem.” (that;s your spelling I am quoting)

    If you want to be mysterious, its ok with me. There are certain ground rules of being a muslim. If not, you belong to a muslim cult.

    I don’t know which Sufi leader you follow, but the Sufism advocated by Syeikh Nazim is not accepted by the Malaysian Fatwa Council. If you read Malay (presumably you don’t since you imply you are not a Malay), read below the Fatwa Council statement in 2000.

    That explains why you are writing from OUTSIDE of Malaysia. They may not recognise you as a Muslim and thus by federal constitution, you are not a Malay.

    http://www.mail-archive.com/islah-net@yahoogroups.com/msg06556.html

    JAKIM sesatkan Tariqat Naqsyabandiah Al-Aliyyah Syeikh Nazim

    AJARAN-AJARAN SESAT YANG DIAMALKAN OLEH MASYARAKAT ISLAM DI MALAYSIA
    Tariqat Naqsyabandiah Al-Aliyyah Syeikh Nazim Al-Haqqan
    ( Ajaran Tariqat Sesat dan telah diharamkan oleh JAKIM)

    Keputusan Fatwa Muzakarah Jawatankuasa Majlis Fatwa Kebangsaan Bagi Hal Ehwal Agama Islam

    a)Tariqat Naqsyabandiah Al-Aliyyah di bawah pimpinan Syeikh Nazim bertentangan dengan fahaman akidah Ahli Sunnah Wal-Jamaah dan menyeleweng dari ajaran Islam. Pengamal ajaran ini hendaklah segera bertaubat.

    b) Semua negeri dikehendaki memfatwa dan mewartakan bahawa tariqat Naqsyabandiah Al-Aliyyah di bawah pimpinan Syeikh Nazim diharamkan dan tidak boleh diamalkan oleh umat Islam kerana ia bercanggah dengan ajaran Islam yang sebenar

    Oleh : Muzakarah Jawatankuasa Fatwa Kebangsaan Bagi Hal Ehwal Ugama
    Islam Malaysia Kali Ke-48

    Tarikh Keputusan : 3 April 2000

    Tarikh Muzakarah : 3 April 2000 hingga 3 April 2000

  73. kathy

    Like me, after your short life on earth, you belong to the worms and maggots somewhere 6 feet below ground. By then your so-called SOUL is nothing more than a wisp of your breath when your lungs stopped pumping.

    All this lecture about Light, Essence etc are for those whose minds got twisted by religious nonsense.

  74. islam came first.

    I really dont care about fatwa’s from weak minded malays.

  75. The Leader I follow is the Koran, our beloved Prophet.

    so I write from OUTSIDE of malaysia.ok whats the deal here with the capital letters.

    I am not the 1st “malay” or “moslem” to be away form Malaysia.

  76. ok which name do you prefer to call me by..(ok forget the horrid ones) Siti Khatijah or Kathy?pls be consistent.

  77. my so called Soul……….mmmm

  78. islam came first. – Kathy

    Despite the historical truth that Christian came first before Islam, you are pretty adamant that Islam came first.

    That is a result of a fermented mind pickled in a broth of religious nonsense..

  79. Islam came first

  80. as you wish. your body will be consumed by worms and maggots. like i said you are what you claim to be. you are what you utter.

  81. Adamant. not the right word.

  82. when you cannot ascertain what I say, Islam came first, you attack me personally.

    those who choose to disbelieve in a Higher Power always end up doing that. attack the person.

  83. you havent even begun to scratch the surface of what is Islam and those who go around killing those who are not, havent even begun to do so either. yet you wish me to agree with you historically. I dont.


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