Promoting Inter-Faith Dialogue
December 16, 2009
Promoting Inter-Faith Dialogue
By Dr Lim Teck Ghee in Phnom Penh
Sitting today in a small group international meeting on the subject of the linkages between religion and development being held in Phnom Penh, Cambodia, I am engaged in deep discussion on how to build inter-faith synergies that can effectively address the many pressing challenges of the region.
The group of 15 participants from different faiths and religions (I am possibly the sole atheist participant) includes three Muslim activist colleagues. They are the country director of Muslim Aid from Bangladesh; a Muhammadiyah senior lecturer from the State Institute for Islamic Studies in Walinsongo Semarang, Indonesia; and the executive director of Muslim-based organisation Ummah Fi Salam based in Mindanao that has been working on an interfaith programme called “Building Darusalam” or “peace communities”.
Present also is a Muslim senior lecturer from the National University of Singapore who is actively involved with giving voice to professional Muslim women in Singapore.
Our two-day workshop is part of the research programme under way at Georgetown University’s Berkeley Center for Religion, Peace and World Affairs, and the World Faiths Development Dialogue which has to date covered North America, the Middle East, Europe and Africa, and Latin America. More information is available on the Berkley Center website http://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu
What I (and others from the non-Muslim faiths) have gotten from our discussions with these Muslim colleagues is not only of their strong conviction in their religion as a religion of compassion, peace and justice; but also of their view of the need for Muslims to stand up and speak out against disrespect, intolerance or injustice, especially in instances when these actions are carried out in the name of the religion against people of other religions and faiths.
As I return to my laptop to review the latest news from the Utusan Malaysia on developments on race and religion in the country, the contrast between the noble values and reasoned and rational statements of my Muslim colleagues here and the “Islamic supremacy” mindset and irrational and provocative ranting of the newspaper editors makes me wonder what version of Islam the Utusan Malaysia is promoting.
The contrast between these Muslim colleagues committed to values of justice, freedom, equality and peace that are common to all religions and faiths, and the Utusan proponents of a racist and religiously warped social order for Malaysia could not be more striking.
In Cambodia for the workshop, these Muslim advocates for inter-faith understanding and reconciliation come from poorer and less developed societies that have much less in the way of material achievement and socio-economic goods. Yet their respect, lack of envy, compassion and positive attitudes towards other religions shines through in their writings, speeches and actions.
In contrast, our Utusan Malaysia and their compatriots of similar ideology are affluent, well educated and come from the most prosperous and powerful Muslim society in the region. From them what we get are messages of hate, spite, narrow-mindedness and intolerance towards the non-Muslim and non-Malay communities in the country. How sad!
Malaysians are deprived of a free media when industry practitioners become too close to the ruling parties and their newspapers are owned by these parties and their cronies.
Journalists like The Star’s Joceline Tan clinch top awards at the inaugural UMNO Media Appreciation Night for her writings, and her RM5,000 and notebook prize presented by no less than the UMNO president Datuk Seri Najib Razak himself. Whereas independent news portals are branded “racist” by the likes of Utusan’s infamous Awang Selamat.
Without a free media, distortions like that purveyed by Utusan news editor Noraini Abd Razak, who refers to the great “benevolence” of the federal government in funding other religions, are left unchallenged.
But according to external sources, “the federal government allocated RM428 million to build Islamic places of worship, and RM8.1 million to build Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, and other places of worship for minority religious groups between 2005 and 2008.”
Contrast this with the Selangor state government under Pakatan which in January 2009 alone allocated RM6 million for non-Muslim places of worship.
PAS’s embattled Perak Mentri Besar Datuk Seri Nizar Jamaluddin rebutted Utusan, saying that the Umno Malays were attempting to distort all statements and actions taken by the non-Malay politicians in the Pakatan Rakyat in order to create a false impression that they were “anti-Malay”. “They are doing this everywhere and trying to get the Malays to believe them.”
Now I’ve only just read of the threat to use the ISA on DAP state representative Nga Kor Ming for questioning the lack of government resources to other religious houses of worship between the years 2000 and 2008 compared to the RM748.26 million spent on the construction of 611 mosques.
The thought then occurs to me that if the situation was reversed in Malaysia and there was a non-Muslim majority or if another religion was the religion of the Federation, surely these same people would be concerned about the extent to which the state was practising religious equality and the extent of bias and prejudice that may be inherent in official policies against the Muslims.
The Utusan Malaysia articles highlighted above have little in common with the Islamic values and norms of the great majority of the Muslim community in the country.
There was a phrase used by one of my fellow participants earlier today on the need to reach out to “the religious hardliners however much they may appear to be beyond the pale”. Since non-Muslims cannot reach out to them, it is important that more rational thinking Malaysian Muslims do this and not sit by idly while their co-religionists propagate their messages of fear and hate. — cpiasia.net
Let’s not talk of religion at such conventions, instead the getting together of all the human race irrespective of what religion he or she or it may believe in.Don’t use religion as a mask/shield to further ones beliefs. It’s ones faith in GOD/The force/or the atheistic power or whatever on may refer to what I believe as God. This should be the objective of each and every one of us. Only then will we see the success of the 1Malaysia.
Brian - December 16, 2009 at 10:02 pm
The issue of state resources being expanded on the construction of temples and churches is a controversial one and I am surprised that no one has come out to challenge the constitutionality of it.
I can find nothing in the federal construction of 1957 that alludes to state expenditure on non-Muslim places of worship – let alone the proportionate expenditure of state resources. Provisions in the constitution merely state non-Muslims shall have the RIGHT to “manage its own religious affairs” and “to establish and maintain institution for religious or charitable purposes” and “to acquire and own property and hold and administer it in accordance with law” : Article 11 (3).
On the other hand, the constitution is clear on the special position of the Muslim religion and the Malays as Muslims. Spread over the constitution are provisions relating to measures safeguarding the special position of Islam
Any constitutional lawyers in the room?
Mr Bean - December 16, 2009 at 11:40 pm
The decision of the Executive to spend state money for non Muslim places of worship is the prerogative of the Executive and within the discretionary powers of the Executive.It does not need to be worded into the Constitution. One does not need to question the constitutionality of the Executive, rather it is to question the prerogative of the Executive, to spend state funds on non Muslim places of worship.
In the same breath, it is within the discretionary powers of the Executive whether to use state expenditure for Muslim places of worship.The only difference is one cannot question the constitutional powers of the Executive to spend state funds on Muslim places of worship.
Frank - December 17, 2009 at 2:12 am
Let me put it in another way.
The constitutional status of Islam is clear. Islam is the religion of the federation: Article 3.
This Article provides legitimacy for many of the government policies, justifies many things that the government does e.g. its lavish expenditure on the building of mosques, of educational institutions. providing religious instructions, in the building of rehabilitation centers for wayward Muslims etc.
Which constitutional provision does the same for the other faiths?
Mr Bean - December 17, 2009 at 2:30 am
Under systems where religion is separated from state, the state cannot spend a dime on anything that has to do with religion. That would be unconstitutional and hence illegal.
Mr Bean - December 17, 2009 at 2:37 am
Mr. Bean
You raised a very interesting point worthy for much thought.
I believe followers of other faiths (non Muslims) have accepted the fact that the constitution does not provide State funding support whilst the stipulations are clear for Islam.
The only article that is sacrosanct is that the Executive does not remove and remains obedient to the constitutional provision that allows others to follow other faiths freely.
Malaysia is not a state where religion is separated. Australia does to claim to have Christianity as its official religion as Malaysia does,although the Aust Parliament would recite the Lord’s Prayer before beginning of each session.
The courts always ask to swear to tell the truth, the whole truth… and ending “so help me God”.
It is always God Bless America and God saves the British Queen.
The American’s belief in declaring US as a champion of separation of religion from state, is nonsense. It never was and never is.American people wants a President who is be God-fearing, not voter-fearing, and had chosen to re-elect a President for a second term who proudly announced on CNN that God spoke to him to invade Iraq.
God rules the US Congress and Senate,God rules the British Parliament asmuch as Allah rules the Malaysian Parliament.
The Speaker/Deputy Speaker of the Malaysian Parliament speaks on behalf of Allah when he decides to rule FOR UMNO and Against PR.
Malaysia, for all intent and purpose is just one heart beat away from becoming an ISLAMIC STATE like Pakistan, simply for the for the fact that those religious fanatics in PAS and the fraudulent Muslims in UMNO had to contend with a significant number of citizens who happen to not to believe one iota that Islam is the way to go to Heaven and meet their God of Compassion.
Furthermore, why Christians don’t take Islam seriously isthat they believe that it IS stated in the Holy Quran that the person coming back from Heaven on the Last Day of Judgement is Jesus Christ, (Nabi Isa),the founder of Christianity.
So while Muslims may believe that Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) is the last Prophet, and just a Messenger of God, but the Quran also alludes to the fact that JESUS is divine, since he will be coming back on the Day of Judgement.This is NOT only what Christians but it is required to be believed by Muslims in the Quran. According to the Quran, Jesus NEVER died, he went up to Heaven in a cloud:
Looks like God/Allah favours Jesus Christ to be His preferred choice, not Prophet Muhammad to come back and fix up humanity on the Last Day of Judgment.So if you asked a Christian, isn’t it better to believe that Jesus Christ is Divine (for one of a better phrase Son of God) than just to limit to the fact that Prophet Muhammad is a Messenger of God.
If I were to make my decision based strictly on the QURAN, I would put my eternal life on the guy who will be coming back on the Day of Judgement as predicted in the Quran.
So, fellow Muslims, think about!! It is in the Quran not in the Christian Bible.
Anyway, from an atheist point of view, it is hypocrisy and a bunch of crap that there is such a thing as separation of state and religion.The only places that truly practise that is China and North Korea.
Frank - December 17, 2009 at 10:22 am
Hahaha.. Frank, you hit the nail on the head! If it ain’t rascism, it will be religion or something else ‘tribal’. But then, your example of N.Korea might not be applicable as they bow before the image of Great and Dear Leader. What about Cuba and Venezuela? Oil rigs/Castro/Chavez? There is no way around these superstitious ‘liturgies’ in government functions, because it is intrin(sic)lly tied up with the vote bank. One things for sure, men will bow to something or other.
As for the non-Muslims in Malaysia, their ‘dissatisfaction’ lies in the inability to get permits from the local authorities for their churches/temples. So they literally set up ‘shop’ in private residences, shopping malls and shophouses. There must be some areas designated for areas of worship, but the ‘goalposts’ for it depends on the mood of the bureaucrats. There have been waiting periods up to 3 decades, and objects of veneration (statues etc.) being cut down in size. So much so, for ‘freedom of worship’.
Menyalak-er - December 17, 2009 at 11:20 am
Guys, religion in my opinion is best practiced in private, although Muslims and congregate in the mosques every Friday and on special occasions. People of other Faiths do the same but on some other days or occasions. That is why we need mosques, temples and synagogues. These are facilities for people to meet, and know one another. I see no problem of using state funds to build them. But separate facilities are exclusive and that is why we need some neutral ground for exchange of views like Inter-Faith meetings and conferences.
Inter-Faith dialogue promotes mutual understanding and through it, we can seek solutions to social problems, build inter-communal trust and eliminate suspicion and ignorance. The danger is that such dialogues can be used to carry out some political agenda. –Din Merican
dinobeano - December 17, 2009 at 11:37 am
What human society should do is to build an OPEN AIR stadium, big enough for different religions to congregate to pray to their respective GOD(s).
After all, they are all looking up to the sky to reach out to see or imagine where their God(s) is, so there should not be any roof. Rain and sunshiine are a blessing of God for humanity, so they should not fear praying in the rain.
They can pitch their respective corners in the Stadium to pay homage to their Gods.
If their God(s) choose to fight each other,there can not be any better place than an open air Stadium.And if there is a winner, that particular God can own that stadium until the next divine competitor comes.Meanwhile those MORTAL human beings can fight their battles OUTSIDE the stadium.
There is a upside to this idea: NO traffic jams, no blockage of roads on Fridays or Sundays and believers can move freely from one end of the stadium to listen or be converted to what the other God’s believers are prayng.
If there is not enough space, they can choose any of the 2-day weekends and the Constitution can always be amended that the stadium can only be used by Muslims on Fridays.
Just a thought on behalf of all the God(s) prayed by Malaysians.
Frank - December 17, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Menayalak-er, Frank has opened the floodgates to a host of hot button issues. If I choose to stand in his way, I’ll be drowned and so I’ll do the next best thing i.e. put on my life jacket and put my survival skills to the test and concentrate on one issue – separation of church (read: religion) from state.
Frank, you being an atheist I can understand where you’re coming from and where you’re going with your comments. You may think this separation between state and church (read: religion) is not much more than a legal fiction – and you’re not wrong. History shows that this nation (U.S.) has been built along the lines of Judea-Christian tradition and that God has always had a role in public life. There is the public swearing on the Bible (or other books of faith) when taking the oath of office by public officials, in court by witnesses when swearing to tell the truth and nothing but the truth – and until recently, prayers and the pledge of allegiance are recited in schools. Why, even the phrase “In God we trust” are on the U.S. currency and atop public buildings. Religious icons, until recently, are allowed in public spaces like shopping complexes; and stone tablets proclaiming the Ten Commandments are displayed in court buildings.
Atheists would be right if they are merely pointing out that in an important sense you really cannot separate God from state. In the immediate aftermath of 9/11 the U.S. President not only would start his early morning meetings with his staff by calls to prayer but he equates the war on terror with the Crusades. But atheists would be downplaying the significance of the First Amendment in the U.S Constitution which prevents the highest legislative body in the country from making any law “respecting the establishment of religion.”
In our federal constitution not only is there Article 3 which states that Islam is the “religion of the federation” (a constitutional provision the breadth and width of which we are still discovering) but there is this golden thread permeating the entire constitution which makes any attempt to look at the country’s constitution as being partly secular an exercise in futility.
But constitutions being living documents, would ours evolve into a document which would make Islam the state religion or Malaysia an Islamic state in the sense that Pakistan is? I think not.
.
Mr Bean - December 17, 2009 at 1:49 pm
“One things for sure, men will bow to something or other”- Menyalak-er
Menyalak-er ,
If you ask me, men(and women) are a bunch of idiots when it comes to religion. Their religion(s) teach that their God gives them a BRAIN to THINK, but then DON’T Think or they don’t use their God-given Brain.
They follow BLINDLY what was written by MEN some 1,000-2,000 years ago and used that today to run their lives, kill each other, and discriminate other human beings.
You see,RELIGION encourages human beings NOT to use their brains, to remain stagnant and static and not to develop their survival instincts to live happily and look after this beautiful planet of ours.
Just see what those pariah UMNO leaders are doing to their fellow Malays and to other non Malays in the country.They are Muslims, aren’t they and they do their Haj in Mecca in trying to cleanse their sins but when they return back to Malaysia,they restart their sins all over again.That goes to the PAS fanatics and those Christians and Hindu fundamentalists. Just look at India, Hindus killing MUslims, and in Pakistan, Muslims killing Christians and in the West,the other way round.
Religion is a danger to the survival of humanity. All forms of Religion should be abolished in the affairs of men.
They should pray to SCIENCE instead because it is SCIENCE that gave you and me to post messages on Din’s blog.
Frank - December 17, 2009 at 2:06 pm
The first Amendment of the US constituition was written specifically to separate the State from Religion, and the founding fathers like T.Jefferson, B.Franklin, J.Madison, J.Adams T.Paine etc were ‘enlightened deists’.
Our constituition is a sort of hybrid and unique – in regards to its parliamentary system, monarchy and religious dichotomy which impacts on the judiciary. I really can’t think of any country with such a 2 track judiciary system, with secular and syariah coexisting. The closest is probably in Northern Nigeria. It will impossible to carry on in this mode, as the radical Islamists will demand that the dhimmi submit to syariah – that, is a given reality.
Even if ‘Enlightenment’ arrives, there will always be resistance. I can’t see any spark at the end of the tunnel, unless we adopt a wholly secular constituition like that of K.Ataturk’s Turkey, but I wouldn’t hold my breath.
Menyalak-er - December 17, 2009 at 2:46 pm
Menyalak-er
The only way Malaysia will survive the 21st Century is to be a secular state with Islam practised inside the front gate of all Muslim homes.
Indonesia is moving forward and resisted the Islamists and the the Islamic fanatics is because it sticks to its secular agenda despite giving God a central place in its pancasila.
If Malaysia is to depend on God for its development, it will become a failed state.
Look at Saudi Arabia, if not for the modern technology offered by Science to extact oil, Saudi Arabia will be country of desert travellers on camels living in tents selling dates and trade in some middle east perfumes.
Fortunately the smart people who wrote the Quran and says everything came from Allah,
Frank - December 17, 2009 at 3:15 pm
continued…
did not stop Science from intruding into the development of Islam’s most holy land. And now you have Sheikhs investing their wealth in the land of infidels, buying up real estate in Satan’s most holy land, United States.
Frank - December 17, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Haha Frank, your belief is as strong as my faith. To me, science and faith (not outward religiosity) are perfectly compatible. My point is – all of mankind is ‘tribal’ in one way or another. It does not necessarily involve religion. The 2 world wars last century, were certainly not fought over religion – just as most of the conflicts today. It may look religious, but is not – and has never been since the age of Western Enlightenment in the 1700′s. Skirmishes yes, not outright wars.
Menyalak-er - December 17, 2009 at 3:33 pm
“They should pray to SCIENCE instead because it is SCIENCE that gave you and me to post messages on Din’s blog.”
Frank – December 17, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Good one, Frank
I know for a fact that if not for religion, many Malay women will be marrying Chinese men and vice versa !
ocho-onda - December 17, 2009 at 3:39 pm
To push the inter-faith dialogue further, perhaps we also need to question ourselves, what makes Malaysians different from other societies and that perhaps, those who are God fearing , need to go back to their religious texts to re-view their interpretation of their religions.
In other countries like Indonesia and Thailand, it is very common to find people of different religions co-existing within their extended and immediate families, without any conflict !
ocho-onda - December 17, 2009 at 3:54 pm
Hi ocho, one main factor was a cephalopod called Octokutty with help from his arch nemesis (nowadays). He messed up the sarung2, baju kebaya and kurung, not to mention the sudden awareness of the tudung/kopiah etc. Form vs. substance.
Have you ever heard ex-convent muslim madams singing “Silent night, Holy night?” Don’t.
Menyalak-er - December 17, 2009 at 4:48 pm
” He messed up the sarung2, baju kebaya and kurung, not to mention the sudden awareness of the tudung/kopiah etc. Form vs. substance…”
Menyalak-er
Get your point. Anything to go one up . Like the Anglophiles who were more English than the English,the WOGs who were more Westernised than the Westerners and for this instance, to be “more suci than suci ” ?
ocho-onda - December 17, 2009 at 4:58 pm
“…all of mankind is ‘tribal’ in one way or another. “- Menyalak-er
Here’s one ETERNAL TRUTH:
Science Unites,Religion Divides.
Prove me wrong on the above statement.
It took two atomic bombs in 1945 to unite America and Japan and became close allies.
It took the advancement of science for those atheists in China to development their country to be now a partner of United States.
It took the nuclear technology to make sure that we don’t go to war and blow each other up as we did for the last 3,000 years. Science creates a fear of Mutual Destruction and forces mankind to learn to live together while Religion preaches there are competiting Gods in our midst and somewhere up there and forces mankind to kill each other.
Today, nations kill each other because of religion or has religion as a subtext, the middle east, Islam’s People of the Book against the Jew’s self-appointed God Chosen People.
Hindus killing inthe name of Lord Krishna vs Muslims in the name of Allah.
Catholics in the name of Virgin Mary vs Protestants in the name of the Son of God in Ireland .
Meanwhile the Buddhist’s hypocritical non violence out on the rampage killing innocent Hindu Tamils in Sri Lanka.
The greatest contribution of Science to mankind is to assist Religion to kill mankind more efficientl.
No, the tribalism of mankind begins with Religion and ends with Religion.
All form of Religion must be annilated and let God find other living creatures in other parts of the universe to pay homage to HIM/HER/IT.(God has no sexual preferences, I presume).
Frank - December 17, 2009 at 8:58 pm
All form of Religion must be annilated and let God find other living creatures in other parts of the universe to pay homage to HIM/HER/IT.(God has no sexual preferences, I presume).
Frank – December 17, 2009 at 8:58 pm
This is extremely offensive to all those who believe in God. Be that as it may, free speech includes hate speech. However, I would not recommend you, Frank to get on the Speakers’ Corner anywhere to repeat the same – except perhaps in places like London’s Hyde Park or New York’s Time Sq. In places like Bangkok’s Patpong or Tokyo’s Shinjuku they may even welcome you for the tourist dollars that any attention brings.
Mr Bean - December 17, 2009 at 10:04 pm
Frank, there’s nothing to debate on.
Faith is faith. Belief is belief. Superstition is another thing.
Do you believe in the String or M-Theory? If you do, that’s ok for so do I. If you don’t, I still do – not that i can understand the physics and mathematics of it, for it explains concepts…
We can’t even observe electrons (particle-wave duality), but as you say we wouldn’t be talking about this if it doesn’t exist. What if I were to say that this whole universe contains one, only one, electron? That’s quantum mechanics and probability.
Human nature which includes ‘conciousness’ is intangible. We can only grasp the meaning and purpose of our lives if we live beyond our ‘selves’. Pure science cannot take into account the reality of who ‘I am’. ‘Humanity’ must not be reduced into mechanics nor biology or any other logia. We are the ‘stuff of stars’ and that by itself, is enough to contemplate about, during our lifetime.
The philosophers of old wrestled with the great questions of “Be-ing” and Socrates said it well when he said the greatest philosophy is theology. Our whole foundation of modern living is due to curiosity of the intellect unshackled by outward ‘religion’, but the purpose was revelation of ‘Truth’. Is the science of Global warming adequate to warrant the circus in Copenhagen? There is no such thing a “scientific” moral-ethical system of thought.
Is it alright if i choose to believe in a ‘God’ (for lack of a better word) and see His works in this universe as revealed to me by science? As i said earlier, all of us have ideas of deity – if yours is this thing called ‘Science’, so be it – it is a belief, a faith.
Menyalak-er - December 17, 2009 at 10:43 pm
In the meantime Din Merican is holding hands with tean happily strolling in the park. Drkam is out of town.
Mr Bean - December 17, 2009 at 11:27 pm
You are barking up/at the wrong tree, Frank.
Again, I will say there is no such thing as Bad Science or Religion.
Like a loaded weapon, Knowledge, be it Scientific or Religious, can be used to save or destroy Life.
It is Human Behaviours – how we relate and our ability to co-exist – that hold the key to the Ultimate Survival or Destruction of the Human Civilisation .
Science, eg, Nuclear Physics when applied positively provides energy, not destruction.
Since Time immemorial, Humans have realised their self destructive side and this realisation is the root of all religions, not just to explain our existence but to promote “correct” read: positive, behaviour to rein in the wild ” uncivilised” behaviour of Humans that is the cause of all Human sufferings and hence, to ensure the ultimate survival of the Tribes .
Unfortunately, over the long period of time ,most religious knowledges have degenerated and digressed into Sects, each with its own deviated interpretation to suit the ego or style of the interpretor at the expense of substance, who had failed to realise that the religious texts are just manuals , a survival guide to be applied and updated periodically in accordance with Time, Place and Use- they neglected to factor in, the most important element , that the only constant in Life is Change itself !
It is this degenerated egoistic interpretation that has obliterated the big picture from the horizon, thereby ,causing all the strife and conflict, with each ,claiming to be the correct, read: True and only, interpretation , thereby all else are False !
So, it is neither Science or Religion but Humans themselves,that divides.
What is happening to the world today is neither the Clash of Civilisations or Cultures , for all that matters,but the struggle for power and World Dominance !
As to Science and Religion ? They are merely convenient tools of the Protagonists to be used to fuel their Agendas !
It is this Total Control that we should be very wary of. Total Absolute Power CAN NEVER be good ! Look what it does to BUMNO, never mind the WORLD !!!
Just my two cents worth.
ocho-onda - December 18, 2009 at 12:31 am
“This is extremely offensive to all those who believe in God. “-Mr.Bean
Which part? God is sex-neutral and that is implicit in all Divine-related religions.So what so offensive if truth be told.Or that the truth may hurt one’s belief system.
It is as much offensive of those who says atheists have no moral character and are bound for Hell.
To say it is offensive, is making a ‘value’ judgment. And we are here not to make value judgments.
If the ideas are hot,then those who cannot handle the heat, ought to leave the kitchen until the heat is gone.
It is a respected position of atheists to call for the annihalation or abolishment of all religions.And books by internationally recognised authors like Prof Richard Dawkins have said so.
God is not insulted. God has been perceived and described here as it is being presented by religionists, ie calling a spade a spade.
Those who felt offensive,well it is a problem they need to handle themselves.
Frank - December 18, 2009 at 1:10 am
“So, it is neither Science or Religion but Humans themselves,that divides.”- ocho-onda
You are only partly right in my view. Religion shapes human character and human attitudes. Thus the causative factor of human behaviour in this instance is Religion and the belief in a set of rituals developed 1,000-2,000 years ago. Science has attempted to bring the Human Mind to the present while Religion is trying to force the human mind to stay stagnant as it was 1,000-2,000 years ago.
That is the difference. Religion IS the cause for the human tendency to destroy each other in their God(s)’ name.
Frank - December 18, 2009 at 1:17 am
You are only partly right, in my view, Frank
Religion is the failed attempt by Humans to elevate the Human condition, to solve the Problem, so to speak.
Science , with all its brilliance, will not be the answer to the Problem either if its application is not positive and is manipulated by Humans to serve the selfish interests of a few and not to the benefit and common good of all .
Ask ourselves this very simple and basic question ?
With the wonders of science, why is the remaining two thirds of the world’s population still living abject poverty, famine and poor health ?
A classic example is global warming and green technology . The real threat of global warming and in consequence, the necessity to reduce the carbon footprint is highly debatable. The global warming issue only arises when it is considered that fossil fuels will be depleted. Yes, but when? Who has the actual and TRUE assessment of how much fossil fuel is left or what the actual time line is !?!
Most of all the alternative fuel technologies were conceived and developed some 30 to 20 years back but the profit making groups will only promote it if they can globalize the whole package – having one third of the world turning Green with the rest still being fossil fuel dependent is not helpful to their objective of Total Domination and maximised profits!
It is all about timing. The blueprints are already planned on how to turn the world “Green”. What better way to start than to sell the idea of reducing the carbon foot print to prevent global warming to save the environment and the Planet !!??!!
What a load of crap ! We are all going to be exterminated first before global warming gets us, by the amount of junk and toxins that we keep on adding to our food chain, the waters and the oceans that we pollute ,further poisoning the crops and the fish we eat and the crap that is being fed into the animals that we consumed!
As to global warming, scientists have also discovered that the Sun is actually, slowly but surely emitting less and less energy (HEAT) and that,in the general scheme of things, it will eventually balance out any warming caused by CO2 emissions !!!
So much for Science, eh ?
Cheers.
ocho-onda - December 18, 2009 at 2:06 am
It’s good to have dialogues like that Frank, but nothing changes.
I’m a hard and soft science ‘addict’ like you, but i have my own way of ‘dealing’ with it, because i never exegete Holy Books literally, but metaphorically. In my professional life, i remain detached and i feel that everybody else should.
The “Death of God” (TimeMag. 1966) has been predicted so many in history, that it no longer causes apprehension on the part of those who ‘appreciate’ the human condition. Value systems, be it from religion, customs, traditions and education shape a persons thinking and outward behavior. The awareness that is required to realize our own conciousness, is often subservient to what is being called profane. Hegel recogmized this and so did Nietzsche.
Richard Dawkin, Sam Harris et al, have their views, but many of us don’t subscribe to them. Again, atheism has descended into a type of ‘religion’ that has to be propogated is it not? Early Christians in the first and second centuries were labelled as atheists and persecuted, because they refused to bow before statues of the Roman Emperor. Atheism too becomes relative.
I for one don’t believe that atheists aren’t capable of moral-ethical thinking. But in the long run, science per se cannot encompass humanity, because of its objectivity, without acknowledging the subjective part of our psyche. Since we are discussing ‘nationhood’, please remember what has happened to Albania under Hohxa – the first and probably the last officially ‘atheist’ nation.
Menyalak-er - December 18, 2009 at 3:10 am
“With the wonders of science, why is the remaining two thirds of the world’s population still living abject poverty, famine and poor health ?”- ocho-onda
Answer is simple: Religion. Religion teaches the poor to be contented with their current existence since Religion teaches propagate the idea that God will deliver them to a better in the next life. And that it is the will of God that they are poor.
It is an affirmation of the idea of stagnation. Be happy even if you are poor and you hear from the pulpits in churches, mosques, temples on the evils of being rich or the bad side of money.
Even the Christian bible says, “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.” So the poor will inherit the earth, so they should not bother to come out of their abject poverty.
Being rich seems to be a bad thing in religion yet the churches, mosques and temples want their believers to contribute cash during and after their religious services or sermons.
Science finds it hard to change the attitudes entrenched by religion… where a child of 5-10 years old being brainwashed with religious studies and talking about the Imaginary Power in the Sky that controls every second of every human being living on this planet, by their parents.
Frank - December 18, 2009 at 3:41 am
Menyalak-er,
Science will explain why some men and women are evil and some are good.Neuroscience and the human genome study will allow mankind to know where and how they came from instead of depending on some ridiculous dogma that man came from dust and woman came from the ribs of man.
Mankind’s salvation on this earth is by going to the hospitals and not to the churches, temples and mosque.
As I said in another thread, if a person wants to meet his/her God so badly,and can’t wait to go to Heaven or Paradise,then they should not go the hospital when they are really sick.There is no other to go to Heaven or to meet their God(s) unless they go six feet underground or get cremated.
So Science is helping them to live longer, not prayers.
You go to see an oncologist if you are worried about cancer, not to a priest or a mufti.
That is an indisputable fact.
Frank - December 18, 2009 at 3:47 am
” Answer is simple: Religion. Religion teaches the poor to be contented with their current existence since Religion teaches propagate the idea that God will deliver them to a better in the next life. And that it is the will of God that they are poor. ”
– Frank – December 18, 2009 at 3:41 am
That’s a very simplistic point of view, Frank. And possibly right, too except you forgot that in the most developed nation in our neck of the woods, most of their political elites are Christians, not that I am waving anyone’s flag, but go tell the North Americans , the Europeans, and all the First World countries or the Japanese ,the Koreans and the Taiwanese for that matter that they are not a religious bunch or that religion has not played a key role in the advancement of their nationhood.
ocho-onda - December 18, 2009 at 5:11 am
Oh,I forgot to mention, that in the third world countries it is illiteracy due to the lack of proper education that is preventing them from breaking the poverty cycle and not religion !
It is education that enable humans to think and to be able to differentiate between what is “good”, “bad”, “right” or “wrong” !
ocho-onda - December 18, 2009 at 5:20 am
“It is education that enable humans to think and to be able to differentiate between what is “good”, “bad”, “right” or “wrong” !”- ocho onda
Right… education in the sciences not about God or learning by rote and by religious propaganda about some nonsensical idealogy written by some desert people 1,000-2,000 years ago who believed the desert wind was the whispering sound of God and rain the falling tears and thunder as the angry voice from above.
The Jews are the smartest people in the world.They even managed to get the Arabs ( their semitic cousins) and Muslims like the Malays, and uncircumcised gentiles to remember right up to today their history of persecution, and their tribulations over 3,000- 4,000 years ago as a race and as a nation of people and even accept the ridiculous nonsense that they are the Chosen People of the Imaginary Power in the Sky or as Muslims like to call Jews, the People of the Book.
The Quran for the most part is about Jews, eg Nabi Ibrahim,Nabi Musa,Nabi Yakob,Nabi Sulaiman, Nabi Daud et.They were not Arabs…they were Israelites ie Jews. They were not even recognised as descendants from Ishmail or Nabi Ismail ( the elder son of Abraham/Nabi Ibrahim).
Even the Malays,who have totallly NO connection with the bloodline of Nabi Ismail (Ishmael) or a drop of semitic genes, even bouight wholesale the Jewish history into their daily lifestyles today. Likewise for those anti semitic Christians in USA and Europe.
That much you can say about how Religion teaches human society today to be so stagnated in their thinking that no amount of enlightenment in their university education can overturn this religious brainwashing since they were 5 years old going to Sunday school and attending classes studing the Quran in Arabic.
Frank - December 18, 2009 at 9:26 am
Education is definitely a criterion in shaping a person’s mindset because it allows him to think rationally. As in our case, religion plays a major part in the regression process.
Religion has been bandied about with education to a stage where one could not differentiate between the two. This is Umno’s forte.
Malay Muslims believe that praying is the only way to salvation. They marry early, have many children and then wallow in self pity for not having the means to sustain themselves.
Fate, they reason, is the cause. “Ini dah takdir. Apa nak buat?” Maha Firaun optimised this weakness to keep them subjucated and forever indebted for the little crumbs he threw in their path.
How pathetic.
Tok Cik - December 18, 2009 at 9:28 am
“Malay Muslims believe that praying is the only way to salvation. “- Tok Cik
Religion has been used to suppress the poor and the uneducated masses. Look how the Roman Catholic Church from Popes in Rome kept Europe centuries in the medieval ages.It took the Protestant movement and the great Enlightenment of science, eg Galileo,Copernicus and Gutenberg’s invention of the printing press to make the masses realised they were hoodwinked by those RELIGIOUS LEADERS.
Islam in the developing world is undergoing the same process as Christendom in the medieval ages. See how Islam is used by the Pariah UMNO Malays to destroy the delicate fabric of Malaysian society, see how Islam is being abused in Afghanistan by the Talibans, denying women and girls from going to schools, blowing up girls’ schools, the suppression of Muslim women in the remote places of Pakistan,Aghanistan in in Muslim countries of Africa.
I wonder what does it take for the Malay masses to wake up from the religious indoctrination for political power entrenchment in the country.The worst of all is the educated Malay elites and intelligentsia are party to this conspiracy with the religious fanatics in PAS and in UMNO to keep suppressing the need to enlighten our Malay rural masses inthe countryside, and to give them exposure in thetoday’s world of information technology revolution.
Look at how the Pariah UMNO Malay leaders controlled the mainstream media and how UMNO’s Utusan Melayu with its Pariah editors and journalist dishing out racist garbage articles fostering racial bigotry and inciting racial hatred amongst the Malays against non Malays and non Muslims.
The first step is to roll back the power structure that currently is abusing Islam, the JAIs, Jakim and the enabling the secular court to take predominance overthe Syariah court and ensure there is balance 50-50 of judges in the Federal Court,the Court of Appeal,High Court and the lower courts, of muslim and non muslim judges.
The above can only be done if voters kick out UMNO-BN from Govt for at least the next two general elections.
The destiny of the Muslim Malays is at a crossroad right now.They can choose the path to be a competitive player in the global economy and global politics or remain a parochially minded religious non entity in the land of their birth.
Frank - December 18, 2009 at 1:57 pm
Yes Frank, its time for “Reformation of Islam”, for their own good.
But being an outsider looking in – the schisms amongst the different sects (Sunni, Shia, Sufi, Ahmadiyas etc.) seem intractable. More so in our country where legalism holds sway. Even then, there are 4 main schools of jurisprudence.
If one has to have a state sanctioned ‘licence’ to preach, all is not well. Can the political leaders do the needful? I doubt.
Menyalak-er - December 18, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Menyalak-er
The way I see it in the country, I doubt there will be any reformation because even the educated elite and the intelligentsia, who are the biggest beneficiaries of the information revolution and the mind-opening overseas education, able to communicate in English and having access to the digital, are either REFUSE to put their necks out to help their FELLOW MALAYS masses or simply they themselveswant to behave like neo-colonialists living a life style of a burgeouisie of an UMNOputra.
Look at all the educated Malays in the Universities, in the top echelons of the GLCs and Govt service, in judiciary what have they contributed substantively to the nation?ZILCH.
They enjoy the perks and fat salaries given by the Pariah UMNO Malay leaders so that they can keep their mouth shut if they see or hear any bad cases implicating thus UMNO=BN Govt and when they are out of job,they are given money with memberships in Board of Directors or made Board Chairmen to attend meetings and contributing the little bit they picked up in their 40 years of their working life.
Less than 2 % of the malay intelligentsia really have the national interest, even if they have, it is national interest with Ketuanan Melayu as the cornerstone of their efforts.
Meanwhile capital flights and brain drain keep making Malaysia into a country with half-baked Vice Chancellors and professors ( the kangkung professors) and self-enriched Malay politicians.
No hope unless the Malay intelligentsia get out of their parochial outlook about what it is to be Malaysian and what it takes to make our beloved country a player in the global stage.
Frank - December 18, 2009 at 4:05 pm
Frank,
Indeed the majority of the Malay intelligensia remain hubristic in their mentality. They have a ‘caste system’ of sorts, even if they deny it. The feudalistic mentality was actively cultivated by Mahatir, who eschewed Western liberalism then and now. Looking East was actually looking inwards and all the supposed Japanese sloganeering were hogwash.
All is not lost in the sense that there are many who were educated overseas and no longer subscribe to their Master’s Voice. I agree with you (even if you didn’t expouse it clearly), that bumno’s ultimate weapon will be to use religion as a means to intimidate. That, they are already in the process of.
Menyalak-er - December 18, 2009 at 5:56 pm
A Ha ! Education is the KEY . It gives the teachers access to the info/knowledge. But it is not the subject’s, Religion or Science, fault if the Knowledge is imparted, misinterpreted, misquoted or misapplied.
It is humans that hold the responsibility to use the knowledge wisely.
Do we ban the computers because of all the junk in the internet ? Or do we apply filters to sieve out the junk. And that is precisely what a sound education enable us to do – to be able to think rationally to decide ,rightly or wrongly, to follow any instruction.
And that is only the easy part ! The harder part, the challenge lies in the hundreds or thousands of years of indoctrination (not for a lack of better word) a society is exposed to in terms of cultural norms and values that dictates a social behaviour .
Take for instance a Malay or a Chinese or any Asian who is brought up not to question his/her elders whose word is Law, together with filial piety, are the main reasons why a society to a certain degree, ceases to think rationally !
We have all come a long way even during a very short span as a nation but we need time to change the mindset of the people.
So, it is good to have debates like this on so we can thrash and hash out what is bad and keep what is good for us and do what ever we can to change the negative mindset, to re-educate the Ultras -Malays, Chinese, Indians and Kadazans.
To separate Religion from the State – YES !
To blame religion for what ills our beloved country, most definitely NO !!
ocho-onda - December 18, 2009 at 10:09 pm
The question is as parents how far do you dare to travel to teach your children to question and not to be parrots without losing your authority as parents !?!
ocho-onda - December 18, 2009 at 10:21 pm
“how far do you dare to travel to teach your children to question”- ocho onda
The greatest gift a parent can give to a child is to teach them to THINK that they can make a positive difference to the lives of others.
Questioning the status quo is the first step and that was how human civilsation progress.
Religion prevents parents from teaching their children to question the status quo and worst still,to regress back their minds to some 1,000-,2000 years ago.
And religions like Islam and Chrisitianity especially teaches parents to allow the young and impressionable minds of little children of 5year old to 10-years old to be brainwashed in totallity by forcing them to attend religious classes ( Quran lessons) and Sunday Schools.
Morally speaking these Muslim and Christian parents should be indicted for serious CHILD ABUSE.. allowing strangers outside their homes to brainwash and indoctriniate their children at such a tender age on those fairy tales that have no relevance to their survival as a child. At the age of 5 -10, these kids are taught to become tribal ( I am Muslim/Christian, and you are not, so you are different from me. My God loves me and I go to heaven, you are an infide/kafir l or because you do not believe in Jesus Crhist as Son of God, you cannot go to heaven. ) It is sinful in eyes of God to abuse a young mind of a 5 year old.Muslim parents are asked to send their kids for Quran reading classes at the age of 5-7 years old!!!!!!
That is why we have highly dangerous religious fanatics amongst Christians,Muslims and Hindus. PARENTS are to be blamed. They are the cause for the religious fanatics and the racists we have in the world. Add the Muslim teachers in our primary and secondary schools in Malaysia for teaching Malay kids that their fellow nonMalay friends will be drowning them in South China Sea and the Indian Ocean.
Frank - December 20, 2009 at 6:18 am
Point noted,Frank.
It is most important to realise the consequences of what we teach our young ,as in computers, – “rubbish in, rubbish out” !
For language and education itself can be tools of propaganda used by the establishment to put the masses through the mill to be subservient to the system or ideal.
What is of relevance is what we put our young and impressionable through, during their formative years because that will determine what they will be as adults.
Hence, the danger is not in Religion or in any subject for that matter because the actual Danger lies in mad men like Hitler and you know who , who tried to play God and tinker with whatever they have on the cards -race, religion, science, social science ,etc – to create a “superior race” to serve their political agendas !
ocho-onda - December 20, 2009 at 6:53 am
Really enjoyed the site
acai cleanse - January 29, 2010 at 6:44 pm